Question about agamas

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Coëmgenu
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Question about agamas

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:06 pm

Hello all!

I was wondering if anyone could point me to an English translation of the version of the Fire Sermon that comes from the agamas, rather than from the Theravada nikayas.

This is, of course, assuming that the fire sermon appears both in the agamas and the nikayas, but I assume it does?

If an English translation can't be found, where would I look in the Taisho Tripitaka to find it in whichever language it is preserved in?

Thanks
-Caoimhghín
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:41 pm

According to this: https://suttacentral.net/sn35
it corresponds to Samyuktagama 197, which can be read here: https://suttacentral.net/lzh/sa197.

There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.

BTW, this seems to be a useful page:
http://buddhism.stackexchange.com/quest ... ranslation

(hat tip to Leo Rivers)
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:11 am

dzogchungpa wrote: There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.
Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.
Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín
I don't know if he is on this forum, but somehow I doubt it. :smile:

I can't seem to locate an email address for him, but you could probably get in touch with him using the contact information on these pages;
http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/contact
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ntakt.html
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:23 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.
Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
-Caoimhghín
I don't know if he is on this forum, but somehow I doubt it. :smile:

I can't seem to locate an email address for him, but you could probably get in touch with him using the contact information on these pages;
http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/contact
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ntakt.html
Thanks! I'll look into contacting him, although I am a bit bashful to contact a busy professional at work translating just to try to get an individual translation out of him for private usage.

I've been going through the text and consulting a couple of online dictionaries, and I can more-or-less make it on my own, despite my Classical Chinese comprehension being horrible.

Thank you though, nonetheless, for pointing this resource out to me.

PS, coincidentally, would you happen to know what 神足變化示現 is supposed to be? The best I could get was "divine-attainment change-transformation manifestation", which is more than a little vague.
-Caoimhghín
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Astus
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Astus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 am

A study of the Chinese, Sanskrit, Tibetan, and Pali versions by Norman Joseph Smith: The 17 Versions of The Buddha's First Discourse
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:49 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:PS, coincidentally, would you happen to know what 神足變化示現 is supposed to be?
Well, I don't actually know any Chinese but if you type
神足
變化
示現
into http://www.buddhism-dict.net/ddb/
I think you'll be able to figure it out. :smile:

Basically, it seems that it refers to two rddhis or siddhis, that of transformation or nirmana and that of manifestaion or vidarsana

This guy: http://no-sword.jp/blog/2013/02/ says:
"aspects of omnipresence and transformation" but I don't know how reliable that is.

That's what I can come up with at the moment. :smile:
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:17 am


Sentient Light
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:26 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.
Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his academic profile page. You can find the collections below all the academic papers, in the "Translations only" category. SA197 is translated in Volume 8 of his SA translations. I've transcribed it below.
Discourse on Being on Fire wrote: Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was staying at the cetiya at Gayāsīsa together with a thousand monks, who were all former matted-hair brahmins.

At that time the Blessed One taught the thousand monks by way of performing the three type of miracles.23 What are the three? They are the miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, and the miracle of instruction. For the miracle of psychic power, the Blessed One entered into an attainment of concentration appropriate for the manifestation of his ascent into the air towards the east to perform [the miracle of psychic power] in the four postures of walking, standing, sitting, and reclining.

He entered into concentration on fire and various type of flames emerged in blue, yellow, red, white, crimson, and crystal colours. He manifested fire and water concurrently. The lower part of his body emitted fire and the upper part of his body emitted water, or else the upper part of his body emitted fire and the lower part of his body emitted water. In the same way he kept going around the four directions. Then, having performed various miracles, the Blessed One sat among the assembly. This is called the miracle of psychic power.

For the miracle of telepathy, [the Blessed One knew] such is the other one’s mind, such is the other one’s intention, such is the other one’s consciousness; the other one should think like this and should not think like that, the other one should give up like this, the other one
should be established in direct realization like this.24 This is called the miracle of telepathy.

For the miracle of instruction, the Blessed spoke thus: “Monks, all is on fire. What is all on fire? That is, the eye is on fire, forms, eye-consciousness,
eye-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on eye-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire. [50c]

“In the same way the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind is on fire, mental objects, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on mind-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire.

“With what is it on fire? It is on fire with the flames of lust, it is on fire with the flames of anger, it is on fire with the flames of delusion, and it is on fire with the flames of birth, old age, disease, death, worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain.”

At that time, hearing what the Buddha had said, by not clinging the minds of the thousand monks were liberated from the influxes.25

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, hearing what the Buddha had said the monks were delighted and received it respectfully.
Here are the footnotes:
Bhikkhu Analayo wrote:22 Parallels: SN 35.28 at SN IV 19,22 (= Vin I 34,14), EĀ 24.5 at T II 622b8, the Catuṣ-pariṣat-sūtra, Waldschmidt 1962: 316,6 (§26.2), the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, T 1428 at T XXII 797a11, the Mahīśāsaka Vinaya, T 1421 at XXII 109b25, the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, Gnoli 1977: 230,10, with its Chinese and Tibetan counterparts in T1450 at T XXIV 134b4 and Waldschmidt 1962: 317,7 (§26.2), as well as several biographies
of the Buddha preserved in Chinese, such as, e.g., T 185 at T III 483a9 (which just mentions the three miracles), T 189 at T III 650a22, T 191 at T III 962a11, and T196 at T IV 151c29; cf. also Waldschmidt 1951/1967: 193.

23 SN 35.28 does not mention the three miracles and only has a counterpart to the last of these three; cf. also the discussion in Anālayo 2015a:26ff.

24 The translation “direct” is based on the assumption that 身 renders the instrumental kāyena (found at the present juncture in Waldschmidt 1962: 320,17 (§26.14) and Gnoli 1977: 230,29), on the significance of which cf. Anālayo 2011: 379 note 203.

25 On the translation of 不起 as “not clinging” cf. Anālayo 2014: 8 note 17.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

Sentient Light
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:32 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
There does not appear to be a published translation yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Bhikkhu Analayo has translated it, so you might contact him.
Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his academic profile page: https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html You can find the collections below all the academic papers, in the "Translations only" category. SA197 is translated in Volume 8 of his SA translations. I've transcribed it below.
Discourse on Being on Fire wrote: Thus have I heard. At one time the Buddha was staying at the cetiya at Gayāsīsa together with a thousand monks, who were all former matted-hair brahmins.

At that time the Blessed One taught the thousand monks by way of performing the three type of miracles.23 What are the three? They are the miracle of psychic power, the miracle of telepathy, and the miracle of instruction. For the miracle of psychic power, the Blessed One entered into an attainment of concentration appropriate for the manifestation of his ascent into the air towards the east to perform [the miracle of psychic power] in the four postures of walking, standing, sitting, and reclining.

He entered into concentration on fire and various type of flames emerged in blue, yellow, red, white, crimson, and crystal colours. He manifested fire and water concurrently. The lower part of his body emitted fire and the upper part of his body emitted water, or else the upper part of his body emitted fire and the lower part of his body emitted water. In the same way he kept going around the four directions. Then, having performed various miracles, the Blessed One sat among the assembly. This is called the miracle of psychic power.

For the miracle of telepathy, [the Blessed One knew] such is the other one’s mind, such is the other one’s intention, such is the other one’s consciousness; the other one should think like this and should not think like that, the other one should give up like this, the other one
should be established in direct realization like this.24 This is called the miracle of telepathy.

For the miracle of instruction, the Blessed spoke thus: “Monks, all is on fire. What is all on fire? That is, the eye is on fire, forms, eye-consciousness,
eye-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on eye-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire. [50c]

“In the same way the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind is on fire, mental objects, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, and feeling arisen in dependence on mind-contact, be it painful, pleasant, or neutral, that is also on fire.

“With what is it on fire? It is on fire with the flames of lust, it is on fire with the flames of anger, it is on fire with the flames of delusion, and it is on fire with the flames of birth, old age, disease, death, worry, sorrow, vexation, and pain.”

At that time, hearing what the Buddha had said, by not clinging the minds of the thousand monks were liberated from the influxes.25

When the Buddha had spoken this discourse, hearing what the Buddha had said the monks were delighted and received it respectfully.
Here are the footnotes:
Bhikkhu Analayo wrote:22 Parallels: SN 35.28 at SN IV 19,22 (= Vin I 34,14), EĀ 24.5 at T II 622b8, the Catuṣ-pariṣat-sūtra, Waldschmidt 1962: 316,6 (§26.2), the Dharmaguptaka Vinaya, T 1428 at T XXII 797a11, the Mahīśāsaka Vinaya, T 1421 at XXII 109b25, the Mūlasarvāstivāda Vinaya, Gnoli 1977: 230,10, with its Chinese and Tibetan counterparts in T1450 at T XXIV 134b4 and Waldschmidt 1962: 317,7 (§26.2), as well as several biographies
of the Buddha preserved in Chinese, such as, e.g., T 185 at T III 483a9 (which just mentions the three miracles), T 189 at T III 650a22, T 191 at T III 962a11, and T196 at T IV 151c29; cf. also Waldschmidt 1951/1967: 193.

23 SN 35.28 does not mention the three miracles and only has a counterpart to the last of these three; cf. also the discussion in Anālayo 2015a:26ff.

24 The translation “direct” is based on the assumption that 身 renders the instrumental kāyena (found at the present juncture in Waldschmidt 1962: 320,17 (§26.14) and Gnoli 1977: 230,29), on the significance of which cf. Anālayo 2011: 379 note 203.

25 On the translation of 不起 as “not clinging” cf. Anālayo 2014: 8 note 17.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about agamas

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:53 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Thank you! Is Bhikkhu Analayo on this forum? Can I contact him via here?
Bhikkhu Analayo has released the PDFs for sets of his SA translations online on his academic profile page:
I look back at my guffaw of assuming Bhikkhu Analayo would be a regular poster here, lol. I, at the time, had assumed that the poster who brought up Bhikkhu Analayo knew him personality, for some reason.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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