Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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AnUpasaka
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Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by AnUpasaka » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:06 am

In the Maha-punnama Sutta of the Pali Canon, it is explained
"Monk, the four great existents (earth, water, fire, & wind) are the cause, the four great existents the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of form. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of feeling. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of perception. Contact is the cause, contact the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of fabrications. Name-&-form is the cause, name-&-form the condition, for the delineation of the aggregate of consciousness."
Does anyone know of any Mahayana sutras that similarly delineate how contact conditions feeling, perception, and fabrication?

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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by Admin_PC » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:33 pm

This might be the closest you get, but the language used is a little different and these things are not the main topic being discussed...
http://sutrasmantras.info/sutra18.html

Similarly, this one also touches on similar concepts, but the main topic is firmly rooted in the Mahayana teachings on emptiness...
http://sutrasmantras.info/sutra45.html
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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by jkarlins » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:43 pm

First two or three of the Udana, I think. Dhammatalks.org has it for free download.

Jake

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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by jkarlins » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:41 pm

Also, from a Vajrayana perspective, Trungpa.

Maybe something in "Myth of Freedom and Way of Meditation," which is a good compilation.

DEFINITELY something in Lion's Roar. It's a chapter near the middle. It's very very good, an experiential explanation in the contact of the yanas.

Jake

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AnUpasaka
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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by AnUpasaka » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:27 am

Thank you for your replies. I was looking for a sutra that explicitly states that contact (sparśa) conditions perception (saṃjñā) and fabrication (saṃskāra). I realize that much of the Agamas are generally accepted in Mahayana, but I would like to know if this idea, that contact directly conditions perception and fabrication can be textually found in Mahayana (as opposed to a more directly causal chain). I could be mistaken, but I could not find it in the above mentioned texts from cursory reading (though I did not look through the mentioned Vijrayana texts).

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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by Admin_PC » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:39 am

FWIW, the terms would likely be translated differently from Chinese to English. A single sanskrit term can correspond to multiple terms in Chinese and vice versa. Add English on top of that and you're unlikely to be able to do a simple word search. The following is in the ballpark.
“Sensory reception, perception, mental processing, and consciousness are called the four formless aggregates. Sensory reception leads to experiencing pain, pleasure, or neither of the two. Perception refers to cognition of pain or pleasure. Mental processing refers to thinking, attention, and sensory contact. Consciousness is the lord of the body, pervading the entire body and directing all of its activities.
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Re: Is there any sutra that explains contact conditioning feeling, perception, fabrication?

Post by Anonymous X » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:36 am

AnUpasaka wrote:Thank you for your replies. I was looking for a sutra that explicitly states that contact (sparśa) conditions perception (saṃjñā) and fabrication (saṃskāra). I realize that much of the Agamas are generally accepted in Mahayana, but I would like to know if this idea, that contact directly conditions perception and fabrication can be textually found in Mahayana (as opposed to a more directly causal chain). I could be mistaken, but I could not find it in the above mentioned texts from cursory reading (though I did not look through the mentioned Vijrayana texts).
I think you would find that 'The Debate Of King Milinda', translated by Bikkhu Pesala, although not a sutra, is one of the clearest texts I have ever come across detailing the subject. This classic text of the sage Nagasena answering the questions of King Milinda with such simple language is one of my favorite Buddhist texts. From the 1st century BCE.

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