Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

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PadmaVonSamba
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Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:30 am

Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
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Lukeinaz
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Lukeinaz » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:39 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:30 am
Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
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Just another way of saying "up to" including everything in between.
There never will be freedom, for there never has been bondage.--Longchen Rabjam

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Vasana
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Vasana » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:41 am

Yup. It's just a method to condense the parts of the sutra which would otherwise mean even more repetition and variations of sentences in regards to the differing phenomena being refered to.

As Lukeinaz says above, 'Until we come to' is just a means of excluding more words but still implying that it is also true of the remaining sense feilds.

In the above passage, it stops at 'no realm of the eye..If it did repeat itself it would follow with,

"No realm of the Ear, no realm of the nose, no realm of the... and so on
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Vasana
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Vasana » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:47 am

The Prajnaparamita in ten thousand lines is a more elaborate version of the heart sutra so it's really worth checking out. It leaves absolutely no stone unturned and should ideally pull the carpet of conceptualization from under our feet.

http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-031-002.html


Chapter 3 - Nonfixation

  • 3.103
    Thereupon, the Blessed One addressed Senior Śāradvatī­putra as follows: “Whatever your reasoning, one is not liberated by perceiving physical forms, [and all the other aggregates], up to and including consciousness, as entities. Nor is one liberated by perceiving them as non-entities, and nor is one liberated by perceiving them as entities and non-entities. Likewise, this applies to the eyes, and in the same vein, to [all the other sense organs], up to and including the mental faculty. Likewise it applies to sights, and in the same vein, to [all the other sense objects], up to and including mental phenomena. [F.28.b] Likewise, it applies to the sensory element of the eyes, and, in the same vein, to [all the other sensory elements], up to and including the sensory element of mental consciousness. Likewise, it applies to the noble truths and, in the same vein, [to all other phenomena], up to and including [the dependent link] of aging and death. Likewise, it applies to the applications of mindfulness and, in the same vein, [to the other causal attributes], up to and including the noble eightfold path. Likewise, it applies to the gateways to liberation and, in the same vein, [to all the other attainments], up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities. Likewise, it applies to the powers of the tathāgatas and, in the same vein, [to all the other fruitional attributes], up to and including omniscience. Likewise, it applies to the six transcendent perfections and, in the same vein, [to all the other fruitional attributes], up to and including the eighty minor marks.

    3.104
    “In all these cases, one is not liberated by perceiving them as entities. Nor is one liberated by perceiving them as non-entities, and nor is one liberated by perceiving them as entities and non-entities. In the same vein, this should be extended to cover the entire range of phenomena, just as has been presented here with reference to the aggregate of physical forms [and so forth].”
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Jayarava » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:50 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:30 am
Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
.
.
.
It is a way of abbreviating a list using Sanskrit yāvan or Chinese 乃至. Here the list is the 18 dhātus: the sense, sense objects, and sense-discrimination (six of each) as cited in In Kumārajīva's translation of the 25,000 Line Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. In T223 the list of dhātus is abbreviated

無眼耳鼻舌身意 No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind
無色聲香味觸法 No form, sound, smell, taste, tangible, or mental object
無眼界乃至無意識界 No visual-element... up to (乃至)... no mind-discrimination element.

The full list can be found in Xuanzang's translation in T220.

無眼界 色界 眼識界
無耳界 聲界 耳識界
無鼻界 香界 鼻識界
無舌界 味界 舌識界
無身界 觸界 身識界
無意界 界 意識界

Which is similar to Giligit Sanskrit Ms

na tatra cakṣurdhātur na rūpadhātur na cakṣurvijñānadhātur
na śrotradhātur na śabdadhātur na śrotravijñānadhātuḥ
na ghrāṇadhātur na gandhadhātur na ghrāṇavijñānadhātur
na jihvādhātur na rasadhātur na jihvāvijñānadhātuḥ
na kāyadhātur na spraṣṭavyadhātur na kāyavijñānadhātur
na manodhātur na dharmadhātur na manovijñānadhātur


No eye-element, no form-element, no visual-discrimination element
No ear-element, no sound-element, no aural-discrimination element
No nose-element, no smell-element, no odour-discrimination element
No tongue-element, no taste-element, no visual-discrimination element
No body-element, no tactile-element, no tactile-discrimination element
no mind-element, no mental-object-element, no mental-element discrimination.

In earlier texts lists that everyone knew where commonly abbreviated this way. The expansion of the Prajñāpāramitā was partly based on filling out these abbreviated passages and partly on incorporating new material.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:58 pm

thanks
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Jesse » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:13 pm

Doesn't the Diamond Sutra go into more detail? I thought both sutras were fairly identical in content?

I may be wrong. I just thought the content was similar:
“Subhuti, do you think that you can measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens.”

“Subhuti, can space in all the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens, both above and below, be measured?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all the space in the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens.”

“Well, Subhuti, the same is true of the merit of the disciple who practices compassion and charity without any attachment to appearances, without cherishing any idea of form. It is impossible to measure the merit they will accrue. Subhuti, my disciples should let their minds absorb and dwell in the teachings I have just given.”
http://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamo ... chapter-4/

What I mean; is that it simply says to let go of all appearances, in meditation at least it can be seen that every last perception, all the way down to the physical sensation of having a solid body, and there being a solid world is nothing but an appearance.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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