Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
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EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Lukeinaz
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Lukeinaz »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:30 am Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
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Just another way of saying "up to" including everything in between.
Vasana
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Vasana »

Yup. It's just a method to condense the parts of the sutra which would otherwise mean even more repetition and variations of sentences in regards to the differing phenomena being refered to.

As Lukeinaz says above, 'Until we come to' is just a means of excluding more words but still implying that it is also true of the remaining sense feilds.

In the above passage, it stops at 'no realm of the eye..If it did repeat itself it would follow with,

"No realm of the Ear, no realm of the nose, no realm of the... and so on
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Vasana
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Vasana »

The Prajnaparamita in ten thousand lines is a more elaborate version of the heart sutra so it's really worth checking out. It leaves absolutely no stone unturned and should ideally pull the carpet of conceptualization from under our feet.

http://read.84000.co/translation/UT22084-031-002.html


Chapter 3 - Nonfixation

  • 3.103
    Thereupon, the Blessed One addressed Senior Śāradvatī­putra as follows: “Whatever your reasoning, one is not liberated by perceiving physical forms, [and all the other aggregates], up to and including consciousness, as entities. Nor is one liberated by perceiving them as non-entities, and nor is one liberated by perceiving them as entities and non-entities. Likewise, this applies to the eyes, and in the same vein, to [all the other sense organs], up to and including the mental faculty. Likewise it applies to sights, and in the same vein, to [all the other sense objects], up to and including mental phenomena. [F.28.b] Likewise, it applies to the sensory element of the eyes, and, in the same vein, to [all the other sensory elements], up to and including the sensory element of mental consciousness. Likewise, it applies to the noble truths and, in the same vein, [to all other phenomena], up to and including [the dependent link] of aging and death. Likewise, it applies to the applications of mindfulness and, in the same vein, [to the other causal attributes], up to and including the noble eightfold path. Likewise, it applies to the gateways to liberation and, in the same vein, [to all the other attainments], up to and including the emptiness of the essential nature of non-entities. Likewise, it applies to the powers of the tathāgatas and, in the same vein, [to all the other fruitional attributes], up to and including omniscience. Likewise, it applies to the six transcendent perfections and, in the same vein, [to all the other fruitional attributes], up to and including the eighty minor marks.

    3.104
    “In all these cases, one is not liberated by perceiving them as entities. Nor is one liberated by perceiving them as non-entities, and nor is one liberated by perceiving them as entities and non-entities. In the same vein, this should be extended to cover the entire range of phenomena, just as has been presented here with reference to the aggregate of physical forms [and so forth].”
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Jayarava
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Jayarava »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:30 am Some translations of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra include the phrase, "...until we come to..."
what does that mean?

"NO EYE, EAR, NOSE, TONGUE, BODY OR MIND; NO FORM,
SOUND, SMELL, TASTE, TOUCH OR MIND OBJECT; NO REALM OF THE EYE, UNTIL WE COME TO NO REALM OF CONSCIOUSNESS."
.
.
.
It is a way of abbreviating a list using Sanskrit yāvan or Chinese 乃至. Here the list is the 18 dhātus: the sense, sense objects, and sense-discrimination (six of each) as cited in In Kumārajīva's translation of the 25,000 Line Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra. In T223 the list of dhātus is abbreviated

無眼耳鼻舌身意 No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind
無色聲香味觸法 No form, sound, smell, taste, tangible, or mental object
無眼界乃至無意識界 No visual-element... up to (乃至)... no mind-discrimination element.

The full list can be found in Xuanzang's translation in T220.

無眼界 色界 眼識界
無耳界 聲界 耳識界
無鼻界 香界 鼻識界
無舌界 味界 舌識界
無身界 觸界 身識界
無意界 界 意識界

Which is similar to Giligit Sanskrit Ms

na tatra cakṣurdhātur na rūpadhātur na cakṣurvijñānadhātur
na śrotradhātur na śabdadhātur na śrotravijñānadhātuḥ
na ghrāṇadhātur na gandhadhātur na ghrāṇavijñānadhātur
na jihvādhātur na rasadhātur na jihvāvijñānadhātuḥ
na kāyadhātur na spraṣṭavyadhātur na kāyavijñānadhātur
na manodhātur na dharmadhātur na manovijñānadhātur


No eye-element, no form-element, no visual-discrimination element
No ear-element, no sound-element, no aural-discrimination element
No nose-element, no smell-element, no odour-discrimination element
No tongue-element, no taste-element, no visual-discrimination element
No body-element, no tactile-element, no tactile-discrimination element
no mind-element, no mental-object-element, no mental-element discrimination.

In earlier texts lists that everyone knew where commonly abbreviated this way. The expansion of the Prajñāpāramitā was partly based on filling out these abbreviated passages and partly on incorporating new material.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

thanks
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Jesse
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by Jesse »

Doesn't the Diamond Sutra go into more detail? I thought both sutras were fairly identical in content?

I may be wrong. I just thought the content was similar:
“Subhuti, do you think that you can measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens.”

“Subhuti, can space in all the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens, both above and below, be measured?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all the space in the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens.”

“Well, Subhuti, the same is true of the merit of the disciple who practices compassion and charity without any attachment to appearances, without cherishing any idea of form. It is impossible to measure the merit they will accrue. Subhuti, my disciples should let their minds absorb and dwell in the teachings I have just given.”
http://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamo ... chapter-4/

What I mean; is that it simply says to let go of all appearances, in meditation at least it can be seen that every last perception, all the way down to the physical sensation of having a solid body, and there being a solid world is nothing but an appearance.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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well wisher
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Re: Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra: "Until we come to..."

Post by well wisher »

Wouldn't extreme attachment to "levels of wisdom" and "levels of realizations", make one seem arrogant / excessively prideful?
Such as selfishly feeding of the ego by deriding others as dumber/stupider/wrong, without any proper explanations or noble purposes, but only for the sake for boasting the self ego as smarter.
If so, I think the Heart Sutra is a great antidote to such.

Found in many Mahayana Buddhist teachings, it says there is a difference between "conventional reality" and "ultimate reality". So there is difference between "conventional wisdom" versus "what is ultimately real".
So that conventional wisdom, like subject-matter book smarts (sciences/social studies/etc), is only temporarily applicable in the current lifetime, and might not be necessarily useful in the next lifetime or so on, in other worlds even. That isn't to deny its usefulness in the meantime, but Buddhism in general does discourage both extreme attachment (greed) and extreme aversions (hatred), so it does make sense.
https://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html

There is no ignorance,
and no end to ignorance.
...........
There is no attainment of wisdom,
and no wisdom to attain.
http://www.cttbusa.org/heartsutra/hs21.htm

Attachment to the six phenomenal paramitas fundamentally does not exist, so the verse says, Without any wisdom, he destroys attachment and empties every characteristic. There had been an attachment to prajna, but now all characteristics have been emptied. Therefore, the sutra says, and no understanding and no attaining.

Without attaining, he has no verification and comprehends the fusion of all dharmas. There is no attainment to be reached, and there is no attachment to the verification of the fruition of Buddhahood
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