Samyukta-agama Discourse

Discuss and learn about the traditional Mahayana scriptures, without assuming that any one school ‘owns’ the only correct interpretation.
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kalden yungdrung
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Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun May 13, 2018 8:59 am

Tashi delek,

In the Samyukta-agama Discourse, there is an account:

Thus I have heard.

At one time the Buddha was staying in a Sala tree grove alongside the river Valgamuda, by a village of the Vrjis. At the time the Blessed One spoke to the monks on contemplating the absence of beauty ; he praised contemplating the absence of beauty (asubha), saying, “Monks, one who cultivates contemplating the absence of beauty, much cultivates it, attains great fruit and great benefit.”

Having cultivated contemplating the absence of beauty, the monks then exceedingly loathed their bodies. Some killed themselves with a knife, some took poison, some hanged themselves with a rope or committed suicide by throwing themselves down from a crag, some got another monk to kill them.

==============================

- Is this true ?
- If this is true then the audience could not understand the Teachings maybe?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:59 am
Tashi delek,

In the Samyukta-agama Discourse, there is an account:

Thus I have heard.

[...]

- Is this true ?
- If this is true then the audience could not understand the Teachings maybe?
Do you happen to the the number of the sūtra in question or its location in the saṃyuktāgama?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun May 13, 2018 5:10 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:59 am
Tashi delek,

In the Samyukta-agama Discourse, there is an account:

Thus I have heard.

[...]

- Is this true ?
- If this is true then the audience could not understand the Teachings maybe?
Do you happen to the the number of the sūtra in question or its location in the saṃyuktāgama?

Tashi delek C,

Thanks for your reply.

No i do not

Got this information from a person who seems to be very well informed about Buddhist Sutras.
Therefore i have put the case here aboard, so that we can see what is true about this Sutra.
Personal am i not so well informed about Theravada Sutra.......

Personal i cannot believe that the Buddha gave a teaching and that there after , some committed suicide.
That would mean they misunderstood the message / meaning of the teaching,somehow.
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun May 13, 2018 10:35 pm

IN ADDITION:

Found a useful link for studying. Saw that it is really huge.
Then it is written in Sanskrit because of the Sarvāstivādins.

Agree it is very difficult to get that relevant Sutra out of 1300 short texts

https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/samyukta-agama
The best meditation is no meditation

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun May 13, 2018 11:46 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 pm
Do you happen to the the number of the sūtra in question or its location in the saṃyuktāgama?
Pretty sure the it is SN 54.9 in the pali.
SA 809 in the agamas.

Sentient Light
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by Sentient Light » Mon May 14, 2018 6:57 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:35 pm
IN ADDITION:

Found a useful link for studying. Saw that it is really huge.
Then it is written in Sanskrit because of the Sarvāstivādins.

Agree it is very difficult to get that relevant Sutra out of 1300 short texts

https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/samyukta-agama
I'm pretty sure I've read this text before, and what you posted is just the beginning of it. After some of the monks he taught had killed themselves or otherwise died, the Buddha is informed of what happened, sort-of face-palms, and says something to the effect of, "Look, some of you apparently got the wrong message. To despise the form body and seek its extinction through karmic actions is foolish; to despise the form body and seek its cessation through the practice of dharma is right view."

This isn't an uncommon structure for an early Buddhist text, which in its basic form looks like:

A: Buddha delivers a teaching to a community
A2: The community puts that teaching into action, and this action ends up causing harm
B: Buddha scolds the community for not understanding, and gives an expanded teaching
B2: The community puts this into practice and some attain arahantship or some other attainment
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon May 14, 2018 8:32 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:57 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 10:35 pm
IN ADDITION:

Found a useful link for studying. Saw that it is really huge.
Then it is written in Sanskrit because of the Sarvāstivādins.

Agree it is very difficult to get that relevant Sutra out of 1300 short texts

https://lapislazulitexts.com/tripitaka/samyukta-agama
I'm pretty sure I've read this text before, and what you posted is just the beginning of it. After some of the monks he taught had killed themselves or otherwise died, the Buddha is informed of what happened, sort-of face-palms, and says something to the effect of, "Look, some of you apparently got the wrong message. To despise the form body and seek its extinction through karmic actions is foolish; to despise the form body and seek its cessation through the practice of dharma is right view."

This isn't an uncommon structure for an early Buddhist text, which in its basic form looks like:

A: Buddha delivers a teaching to a community
A2: The community puts that teaching into action, and this action ends up causing harm
B: Buddha scolds the community for not understanding, and gives an expanded teaching
B2: The community puts this into practice and some attain arahantship or some other attainment

Tashi delek SL,

Thanks for your effort and reply.

Well then we have here something which is then a partly true story, in so far i see your reply.
Because i am not so professional qua Sutra, i could not say of this story / Sutra is a true or false interpretation of the Buddha´s Shakyamuni´s Teaching .

But i also cannot conclude at the moment which of the above mentioned points (a2 / B and B2) would be valid.
The best meditation is no meditation

mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:57 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 11:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 pm
Do you happen to the the number of the sūtra in question or its location in the saṃyuktāgama?
Pretty sure the it is SN 54.9 in the pali.
SA 809 in the agamas.
See SuttaCentral, which lists them as parallels.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.9 Pali
https://suttacentral.net/sa809 Chinese

:heart:
Mike

mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 am

As Bhikkhu Bodhi notes in his translation of the sutta, the story is told in more elaborate form in the Vinaya: https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3

:heart:
Mike

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu May 17, 2018 7:27 am

Tashi delek,

If i understood it well, then we may conclude that some monks / persons who were present at that Teaching at that time, would have misunderstood the Teaching on the ugliness of the body.

That means that the Teaching(s) of the Buddha was / were not always correct understood, regarding the lower / middle and higher level of understanding of the listeners of the audience.

Before i thought always that the teachings of the Buddha were always understood, because of the power of concentration and other siddhis the Buddha possesses.
The best meditation is no meditation

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Samyukta-agama Discourse

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu May 17, 2018 7:53 am

The story is about the historical buddha not the Mahayana buddha.

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