Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

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nudnavda
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Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by nudnavda » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:58 am

Would anyone know whether there exists a translation of The awakening of faith in the Tibetan canon?
Feels strange to me that this text, though quite influential in China, Korea ,Japan etc., has not been transmitted to Tibet.
One possible explanation (to me, as a non-academic) might be the Tibetan predominant orientation towards India.
But then, this orientation has only been firmly established after the debate around 750, and this "shastra" appeared already in the 7th century.
And Zongmi, active around the time of the debate, has appreciated and promoted The awakening of faith.
Thanks for any help!

Malcolm
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:28 pm

nudnavda wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:58 am
Would anyone know whether there exists a translation of The awakening of faith in the Tibetan canon?
Feels strange to me that this text, though quite influential in China, Korea ,Japan etc., has not been transmitted to Tibet.
One possible explanation (to me, as a non-academic) might be the Tibetan predominant orientation towards India.
But then, this orientation has only been firmly established after the debate around 750, and this "shastra" appeared already in the 7th century.
And Zongmi, active around the time of the debate, has appreciated and promoted The awakening of faith.
Thanks for any help!
It was never translated into Tibetan. Most likely, it was regarded as inauthentic.

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Anders
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by Anders » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:28 pm

There is not. Which is why some scholars have posited that it was authored by Paramartha, rather than simply translated.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

Sentient Light
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:31 am

https://www.academia.edu/23769840/Awake ... e_Qixinlun

The above link is an intersting look at the Pure Land section in the Awakening of the Faith, which is normalyl considered an insert. The author provides some arguments as to why it might be authentic, and why the Awakening of the Faith might not be a Chinese text (notably, it doesn't use the term "Pure Land," it doesn't make use of any Chinese concepts, it doesn't reference reciting the Buddha's name, it's primarily concerned with faith and samadhi, etc.). An interesting read.

I am highly doubtful Asvagosha is the author, even if it does have an Indic origin -- he wasn't really known for writing theoretical works, and the only time he's really known to write anything more instructive, it was in an epic poem, and seemed to be pulled from the Yogacarabhumisastra (which... wasn't supposed to exist at that time, another subject entirely). So if it does have an Indic origin, I think it was more likely authored by some unknown and historically insignificant monk, and didn't really make it to Tibet through the Indic route.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

ItsRaining
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:44 am

Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:31 am
https://www.academia.edu/23769840/Awake ... e_Qixinlun

The above link is an intersting look at the Pure Land section in the Awakening of the Faith, which is normalyl considered an insert. The author provides some arguments as to why it might be authentic, and why the Awakening of the Faith might not be a Chinese text (notably, it doesn't use the term "Pure Land," it doesn't make use of any Chinese concepts, it doesn't reference reciting the Buddha's name, it's primarily concerned with faith and samadhi, etc.). An interesting read.

I am highly doubtful Asvagosha is the author, even if it does have an Indic origin -- he wasn't really known for writing theoretical works, and the only time he's really known to write anything more instructive, it was in an epic poem, and seemed to be pulled from the Yogacarabhumisastra (which... wasn't supposed to exist at that time, another subject entirely). So if it does have an Indic origin, I think it was more likely authored by some unknown and historically insignificant monk, and didn't really make it to Tibet through the Indic route.
I think not using many Chinese concepts might be because it was written by students of Bodhiruci? It’s been a while but I remember reading something along those lines. So while Bodhiruci didn’t teach conventional Indian Buddhism it wasn’t completely Chinese.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:34 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:31 am
https://www.academia.edu/23769840/Awake ... e_Qixinlun

The above link is an intersting look at the Pure Land section in the Awakening of the Faith, which is normalyl considered an insert. The author provides some arguments as to why it might be authentic, and why the Awakening of the Faith might not be a Chinese text (notably, it doesn't use the term "Pure Land," it doesn't make use of any Chinese concepts, it doesn't reference reciting the Buddha's name, it's primarily concerned with faith and samadhi, etc.). An interesting read.

I am highly doubtful Asvagosha is the author, even if it does have an Indic origin -- he wasn't really known for writing theoretical works, and the only time he's really known to write anything more instructive, it was in an epic poem, and seemed to be pulled from the Yogacarabhumisastra (which... wasn't supposed to exist at that time, another subject entirely). So if it does have an Indic origin, I think it was more likely authored by some unknown and historically insignificant monk, and didn't really make it to Tibet through the Indic route.
What does the author think about the 體用 (essence-function) philosophy peppered throughout it? I would say that is a point against the claim of "it doesn't make use of any Chinese concepts".

http://www.acmuller.net/articles/2016-0 ... review.pdf

Google "Awakening of" in the document above for a different perspective. Both are interesting articles.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

tingdzin
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by tingdzin » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:54 am

Not my area of specialization, but I thought it was now commonly accepted that both the Awakening of Faith and the Sutra for Humane Kings were composed outside of India. Don't have references to hand, though.

Not the same thing, by the way, as being "inauthentic".

nudnavda
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by nudnavda » Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:06 am

Thanks, for the replies!
Still feels unsatisfactory, though.

Of course, the ambiguity about its origins is well-known.
But has any really valuable document ever been refused on that ground?
Are Asanga's or Narajuna's works not also surrounded by myths?

I can't place it in the historic perspective, especially since these centuries (6th-8th) are quite formative.
Maybe this teaching has been neglected in Tibet because of the rather obvious Chinese philosophy it's "peppered" with?
I could imagine the Tibetan wishing to keep their tradition uninfluenced from the Chinese sources and therefore chosing not to include the document.
Also, the Awakening of Faith has little to offer in terms of lineage or scholastics, which seem substantial elements of the Tibetan tradition.

It's a strange phenomenon to me, all in all. :meditate:

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:39 pm

nudnavda wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:06 am
It's a strange phenomenon to me, all in all. :meditate:
Not really - whether one thinks of it as sectarianism or intense preference & focus, such is the case. Also the ease of comparison study back then was far more difficult than now, when we just click on the Internet.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

nudnavda
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by nudnavda » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:19 am

Thanks, Nicholas, for your reflection.

To me, "Such is the case" feels a bit lightweight, so to say. I can't match that with all the trouble practitioners went through in their search for valuable documents. I can't see how The awakening of faith, influential as it has been, would have been generally unknown to serious seekers in the greater Chinese-Tibetan region; that would be hard to imagine (even without internet ;-).

So the question remains: have there been specific conditions that made the Tibetan tradition ignore or negate a source like this?
For instance: has information about its existence perhaps been restricted? If so, what reason could there have been?
Has it been a subject of discussion somewhere - especially in sources of the second half of the eight century, or in circles connected to Zongmi?

If indeed there is no indication of any special treatment, than "Such is the case" would yet seem an basic conclusion.
And probably that would nicely confirm the free and wondrous and precise nature of wisdom.
In the meantime, I welcome any information.

ronnymarsh
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by ronnymarsh » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:38 pm

There is no version of this text in a language other than Chinese, which assumes that the chances of being an originally Chinese composition are greater than being an Indian composition. Now the fact that it is possibly a Chinese composition does not mean that it is not part of Indian thought.

It is possible that the author of the Treatise on the Awakening of the Faith was an Indian [Paramartha] who lived in China and wrote for a Chinese audience, or even another Ashvagosha who wrote and who Paramartha actually translated and who by name takes us the confusion.

But the fact that the work does not have a Tibetan version is not due to the fact that it is a Chinese composition.

In the history of the development of Tibetan Buddhism there is the presence and dissemination of Chinese teachings and schools in the country. Exit, for example, the legend of the debate sponsored by the emperor between the masters Mohoyen and Kamalasila.

This, although it may be a legend, is in some ways a reflection between the debates that took place between the Buddhism taken from India and the one taken from China. Thus, Tibet preferred the development of the late form of Indian Buddhism rather than an earlier form that survived in Chinese Buddhism.

To make matters worse, with the Gelug school rule, anything that had a certain "yogacara" content was not very well seen, the Jonang school, for example, completely disappeared, and Niygma only survived because it came to accept the terminology [and even a Madhymaka imposed by the Gelugpas.

nudnavda
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Re: Is there a Tibetan translation of The awakening of faith

Post by nudnavda » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:37 am

Thanks very much, Ronny.
A clarifying portion concreteness.

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