Buddhist Anarchism

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:41 pm

Joka wrote:
pothigai wrote:
Joka wrote:
Marxism and communism fails because of the inevitable corruption of the political vanguard and once the prevailing ruling class is destroyed this vanguard or organization of the proletariat becomes the new ruling class. Once more what is sad and a testament of the corruptible influences of human nature is that the proletarian vanguard once achieving power turns on all other non-inner party proletarians viciously.
The theory of the necessity of an authoritarian vanguard party is not common to all strains of Marxist political thought, but is particularly associated with Marxism-Leninism. Many Marxists, on the contrary, seek to establish a social order in which the means of production, and all other institutions, are truly democratic.
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy. I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
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Joka
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
pothigai wrote:
The theory of the necessity of an authoritarian vanguard party is not common to all strains of Marxist political thought, but is particularly associated with Marxism-Leninism. Many Marxists, on the contrary, seek to establish a social order in which the means of production, and all other institutions, are truly democratic.
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy. I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only. This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:34 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy. I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only. This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Joka
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only. This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.

Even if it is karma this does not mean it should be tolerated or supported.

If we ever get to a point in the future where civilization is consumed or engulfed by social inequality we'll see a situation where civilization across the planet is destroyed and annihilated from within. This is what I see for the future if the world continues as it is now unchanged.

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
That is why I support small time localism within a sort of anarchist direct democracy because as nations become too big or large corruption becomes paramount along with tyrannical mismanagement that we find only in representative democracies and similar organizations.

Democracy rests upon how educated people are? The upper echelons of society are more able to make more educated coordination of society at large? No, the wealthy and educated highly skilled professional segments of society vote with their wallet or bank account in terms of their own self interests only. This is why a representative democracy like the United States there is huge swathes of social inequality concerning the huge divide of the very wealthy and very poor.

There are plenty of highly educated corporate lobbyists running representative democracy amuck worldwide.
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Joka
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:38 pm

Joka wrote:...and on the other you have extreme socialism of the Marxist communist variety which ends up as a totalitarian socialist state.
There is a working example of this position in this world right now? It seems to be that corporatism won. Nationalism and other types of tribalism (as you like to call it) are a mistaken reaction to global corporatism. What is need is a global libertarian movement, not a local conservatism.

I was talking to my friend in Catalonia about Catalan autonomy and how it is sooooooo deluded to believe that a Catalan worker has more in common with a Catalan capitalist, than a Castillian worker (for example). COMPLETELY DELUDED. Tribalism and Nationalism is a trap. It is designed to pit people against each other based on non-existent differences while drawing attention away from the underlying source of exploitation.

Identity politics also falls into this trap to a lesser extent.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:18 pm

Grigoris wrote:Tribalism and Nationalism is a trap. It is designed to pit people against each other based on non-existent differences while drawing attention away from the underlying source of exploitation.

Identity politics also falls into this trap to a lesser extent.
Hear, hear.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by pothigai » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:25 am

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
pothigai wrote:
The theory of the necessity of an authoritarian vanguard party is not common to all strains of Marxist political thought, but is particularly associated with Marxism-Leninism. Many Marxists, on the contrary, seek to establish a social order in which the means of production, and all other institutions, are truly democratic.
The only genuine democracy that exists is direct democracy. I view representative democracy as a sham or fraudulent version of itself. One only needs to look at the present United States as example for the corruptible nature of what all representative democracies turn into.
Direct democracy does not scale well. It works fine at the village and town level, but that's about it. Secondly, the success of any democracy depends on the education level of its constituents. Poorly educated people tend to make poor choices.
I agree, I don't think it's feasible or desirable to manage everything through a system of direct democracy, I think representative institutions are necessary for the management of things on a large scale, though perhaps not the exact form of representative institutions that we current;y have in liberal democracies. Furthermore, there is an obvious advantage to managing many things on a larger scale.

I think that part of the problem with our current representative processes is that people are poorly educated, in a broad sense of the word. Access to information and control of dissemination of information is controlled by private interests, to an increasing degree, in a lot of liberal democracies. These private interests in are opposed to the interests of the vast majority of people,
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:34 am

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.
I think you ought to read Anarchy, State and Utopia by Nozick. You should also read Bookchin.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by muni » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:21 am

Joka wrote:
I like this example of story mind you're using. Can you articulate or elaborate more on that?
Oh yes, I am here in Engaged Buddhism and as you said connecting with nature during meditation…as we are all interconnected, interdependent and not different from each other, we have the same basis, are not without each other. But our experience of being an individual apart- and still in our world makes us believing our truths based on our idea-making mind. We do not learn to listen to each other, we learn not to be there for each other, only to defend own ideas and as long as others are there to please our ideas, to agree with them, they are good.

It looks like we do the opposite of what Buddha tried to share with us. Practice and by that insight which connect us again with what is hidden by the world of the struggling individual in its restricted experience. Even democracy, in hands of individualism/personhood, can smoothly be an object for self-cherishing. Or building borders around our environment- as it would be possible to live on our own nowadays - with our unique identity, while we are all by the same elements and so our environment.

We often are expecting/desiring others to change, comparing systems, hoping better systems are made. It is great if we can do so, I mean encouraging others to become more beneficial for each other, beneficial examples. But as there is also said “change must come from within” for our own restricted view to fade. Buddhist Anarchism? Nature is the all-embracing compassion, no other or higher boss/system is there.
I say so because merely expecting the world to fit me, seems not to have great results. :smile:
Malcolm wrote:
There will always be inequality. This is a result of karma.
Yes, while all are wishing lasting peace/ contentment, at least in practice all are included. :namaste:
May the suffering of all beings be pacified.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf
True change is within, leave the outside as it is. His Holiness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drPB75kgZ64

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:22 pm

I think that it is true that what we deem as inequality is due to a large degree to past karma, ie circumstances we are born into are a consequence of past karma.

Thing is though that our present karma can address the current situation in order to mitigate the problem, to an extent. While I may be born with a larger share of power and wealth due to my generosity in the past, the only thing that is stopping me from sharing my current power and wealth with those in a less fortunate state, is my actions right now. Buddhism addresses this issue through the application of the Paramita, these would not be espoused if they were not actually effective. Okay, ultimately the Paramita are practiced for reasons of Buddhahood and not for political utopian projects, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
Last edited by Grigoris on Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:I think that it is true that what we deem as inequality is due to a large degree to past karma ie circumstances we are born into are a consequence of past karma.

Thing is though that our present karma can address the current situation in order to mitigate the problem, to an extent. While I may be born with a larger share of power and wealth due to my generosity in the past, the only thing that is stopping me from sharing my current power and wealth with this in a less fortunate state, is my actions right now. Buddhism addresses this issue through the application of the Paramita, these would not be espoused if they were not actually effective. Okay, ultimately the Paramita are practiced for reasons of Buddhahood and not for political utopian projects, but I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by DGA » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:13 pm

There really is such a thing as too much democracy.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/su ... 0521685092

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by kirtu » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:37 am

Malcolm wrote: America is not anti-intellectual.
America's Cult of Ignorance—And the Death of Expertise

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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kirtu
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by kirtu » Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:56 am

Malcolm wrote: It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies. Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).

Please examine the Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index:

The top ten countries as ranked by IHDI
1 Norway 0.898
2 Iceland 0.868
3 Australia 0.861
4 Netherlands 0.861
5 Germany 0.859
6 Switzerland 0.859
7 Denmark 0.858
8 Sweden 0.851
9 Ireland 0.850
10 Finland 0.843
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:57 pm

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies. Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).

All formations are subject to decay.

It is unlikely that within the horizon of our lifetime much will change for the better.

Moving to any of the countries you suggest will change very little. Why? Because these countries are not really the problem. The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:17 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Maybe so, but this inequality is only increasing with the modern world being the epitome or apex of it.
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.
Anarchy is where everybody gets to pick, not just an elite few. A directly democratric solution based on consensus, is a solution that takes into account everybody's needs.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
So, who is going to pick winners and losers?

Karma is unerring.
Anarchism is where nobody gets to pick.
Anarchy is where everybody gets to pick, not just an elite few. A directly democratric solution based on consensus, is a solution that takes into account everybody's needs.
No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.
On a large scale direct democracy works via a confederate system. Representatives of the position of their community meet with other representatives and work on a consensual decision based on the variety of views. Representatives do not have the right to change the view/opinion of their community, nor override it with their personal view. In the case of a complete deadlock over a decision that HAS to be made? Majority vote.

WTF is majoritarianism???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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