Buddhist Anarchism

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Joka wrote:

Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement? :rolling:
People engaging in contentious political discussions on the forum need to back up their arguments, and to have enough respect for the people they are talking to to actually explain themselves, instead of deflecting. That goes for people who sees themselves a oppressed, those that don't, etc.
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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:33 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.
Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement? :rolling:
You need to define which people you think are oppressed and disenfranchised systematically in the US. Are you referring to black communities? Undocumented immigrants? White people living in Minnesota? Native Americans?

If you are white, you hardly qualify as a person suffering under an oppressive tyranny. In other words, you need to be more precise.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.
Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement? :rolling:
You need to define which people you think are oppressed and disenfranchised systematically in the US. Are you referring to black communities? Undocumented immigrants? White people living in Minnesota? Native Americans?

If you are white, you hardly qualify as a person suffering under an oppressive tyranny. In other words, you need to be more precise.
Oppression and tyranny are race color blind.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:42 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement? :rolling:
You need to define which people you think are oppressed and disenfranchised systematically in the US. Are you referring to black communities? Undocumented immigrants? White people living in Minnesota? Native Americans?

If you are white, you hardly qualify as a person suffering under an oppressive tyranny. In other words, you need to be more precise.
Oppression and tyranny are race color blind.
Nonsense. For instance, In the US, a black person in a given situation almost always faces systematic disadvantages that another person would not. That said, sure, poor white folk can certainly be oppressed.

You personally have enough leisure time and resources to engage in this very conversation, which is more than can be said for many people out there.

So rather than tell us how you don't need to explain how the US is a "tyranny" because you think your personal situation is exceptional, it'd be cool if you'd simply explain how the US is a tyranny in more detail.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:55 pm

Joka wrote:
Oppression and tyranny are race color blind.
Total nonsense.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You need to define which people you think are oppressed and disenfranchised systematically in the US. Are you referring to black communities? Undocumented immigrants? White people living in Minnesota? Native Americans?

If you are white, you hardly qualify as a person suffering under an oppressive tyranny. In other words, you need to be more precise.
Oppression and tyranny are race color blind.
Nonsense. For instance, In the US, a black person in a given situation almost always faces systematic disadvantages that another person would not. That said, sure, poor white folk can certainly be oppressed.

You personally have enough leisure time and resources to engage in this very conversation, which is more than can be said for many people out there.

So rather than tell us how you don't need to explain how the US is a "tyranny" because you think your personal situation is exceptional, it'd be cool if you'd simply explain how the US is a tyranny in more detail.

Yes, homeless, exploited, or disenfranchised white people living in poverty don't exist. All white people are privileged driving BMW's living in McMansions all across the United States making seven figures. White people are all white devils. (Interjected sarcasm) Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together. It is the opposite of genuine authentic unmitigated multiculturalism or multiracialism.

You know nothing of my leisure time or personal life where I think it is inadvisable to make such blatant comments as that. You know nothing of my past and current struggles.

I could tell you about some personal experiences of mine that I have faced but I stand by my comment that nothing I would say would be redeemable in your eyes as I get the feeling you want to shoot down everything I have to say out of ideological differences.

Also, I won't tell you or anybody here what race I am as this would just validate the divisiveness of your whole Marxist cultural perceptional analysis here.

I may be east Asian, Congolese, or a purple skinned alien man from the planet Neenu. I'll just let you guys hilariously assume what racial or ethnic background I come from.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:06 pm

Joka wrote:
Yes, homeless, exploited, or disenfranchised white people living in poverty don't exist. All white people are privileged driving BMW's living in McMansions all across the United States making seven figures. White people are white devils Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together. It is the opposite of genuine authentic unmitigated multiculturalism or multiracialism.
I didn't say any of that, all your own words. I personally tend towards a class-based analysis of things pretty strongly, but that doesn't negate the existence of racism. "Cultural Marxism" is a nonsensical word-choice made up by right-wing pundits, there is no such thing. Hard Marxism is class-based and pretty much dispenses with identity politics.
You know nothing of my leisure time or personal life where I think it is inadvisable to make such blatant comments as that. You know nothing of my past and current struggles.
Of course not, just like you don't know anyone's background here.
I could tell you about some personal experiences of mine that I have faced but I stand by my comment that nothing I would say would be redeemable in your eyes as I get the feeling you want to shoot down everything I have to say out of ideological differences.
No I just want you to make sense and stop relying on tossing out self-righteous emotional content (and not much else) in a political discussion. It's really not personal.
Also, I won't tell you or anybody here what race I am as this would just validate the divisiveness of your whole Marxist cultural perceptional analysis here.
I haven't considered myself a Marxist for 20 years or so. Funnily enough, I have some sympathies in the direction of Anarchism. I have some serious issues with Marxism in places, but what you are criticizing here has nothing to do with Marxism anyway.

Also what is an
Marxist cultural perceptional analysis
??
I may be east Asian, Congolese, or a purple skinned alien man from the planet Neenu. I'll just let you guys hilariously assume what racial or ethnic background I come from.
Can you just answer the question Malcolm posed earlier? I think these distractions are a waste of time.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:38 pm

For me anarchy is the closest one can get in atonement with nature. Nature is spontaneous, unmitigated, chaotic, random, and exists outside of the artificial realm of human created central authority. Much of the problems human beings face are self inflicted within the constrained realms of civilization because of turning our backs on nature. Nature and anarchy for me is the natural spiritual way where in itself can be enlightening.

When one meditates, are they not connecting to nature its primordial connection to everything in totality?

In Zen no mind (Mushin No Shin) one is free of all civilization's constraints.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Vasana » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:54 pm

Joka wrote:For me anarchy is the closest one can get in atonement with nature. Nature is spontaneous, unmitigated, chaotic, random, and exists outside of the artificial realm of human created central authority.
Nature is also spontaneously-ordered, self-organizing, self-mitigating, with self-emergent forms of order that arise from the very depths of and on the edge of chaos. Nature's not entirely random, but has some predictable variables driven by various principles under certain conditions. Nature isn't absolute chaos nor is it absolute order. Nature's order is a flexible kind of order teetering on the edge of entropy and self-regeneration. Overly rigid and enforced forms of non-symbiotic order are what leads to chaos and collapse /disorder. Which is essentially the hallmark of the anthropocene (so far).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_order
Joka wrote: Much of the problems human beings face are self inflicted within the constrained realms of civilization because of turning our backs on nature.
I agree there.
Joka wrote: In Zen no mind (Mushin No Shin) one is free of all civilization's constraints.
And yet as Buddhists, particularly Mahayana Buddhists, we have to work with the circumstances we are collectively situated within. You can still operate within civilization and be free of the notion of civilization just as you can ideally help beings without holding on to the notions of help, helper and helped.

Ecological and social collapse will come in some form either way so anarchists will always have that riot to look forward to, but to assume an ideological chaos is a state of freedom from constraint is to not really have a clear idea about what the chaos-order spectrum really is.

The way in which new forms of order emerge from the chaos of this half of the century is still very much to be seen. I'm personally still yet to find a better way of framing it all beyond biological notions of mutual-symbiosis and homoeostasis.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Vasana » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:15 pm

Image
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:40 pm

Well said and put Vasana. I like your thoughts on the issue. Much appreciated.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:39 pm

Joka wrote:
Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together.
Hmmm, let's see, you invoked globalists in combination with corporatism, praised nationalism, and now invoke cultural Marxism. So far this makes three alt-right themes you have repeated here. Just how are your views different than Steve Bannon's? Are you a regular reader of Brietbart? Do you haunt 4chan?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:06 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:If you know about that stuff, why on earth would you find it odd that they get mentioned in the same sentence? They are part of the same intellectual milieu, unless you start talking about right wing forms of anarchism.
It is quite common for Anarchists to identify as "neither left nor right" because classically left and right wingers were both statists. The thing that distinugished left wingers from right wingers is how they utilised the state and to what end. Anarchists, on the other hand, are anti-statist. So they are neither right-wing nor left-wing.

Anarchists are classically differentiated based on whether they are social/communal or individualist in their outlook.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:20 pm

Joka wrote:Nationalism can be reformed like anything else and doesn't have to be so discriminating. I believe all people have a right to autonomy and self determination.
Sorry dude, but you cannot be an Anarchist and a Nationalist at the same time. Nationalism stands firmly on centralised states and a militarised social/political system, these are the anathema of Anarchism.

cf the Spanish Revolution.

Anarchism is inherently anti-Fascist.

Trying to wed Nationalism and Anarchism does not make you an unorthodox Anarchist. It makes you deluded.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:23 pm

Joka wrote:...and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together. It is the opposite of genuine authentic unmitigated multiculturalism or multiracialism.
Sounds like you are describing Nationalism here, and yet... strangely enough... it seems you are talking about Marxism...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:If you know about that stuff, why on earth would you find it odd that they get mentioned in the same sentence? They are part of the same intellectual milieu, unless you start talking about right wing forms of anarchism.
It is quite common for Anarchists to identify as "neither left nor right" because classically left and right wingers were both statists. The thing that distinugished left wingers from right wingers is how they utilised the state and to what end. Anarchists, on the other hand, are anti-statist. So they are neither right-wing nor left-wing.
IDK about that, Bakunin is hard to describe as "neither left nor right", unless one is just wanting to do so as some kind of posturing. For that matter, technically most Communists (even the total kooks) are also "non statists", it's just that their predictions worked out so terribly wrong in that realm heh.
Anarchists are classically differentiated based on whether they are social/communal or individualist in their outlook.
Fair enough, but that is a bit of a slippery thing, many of the 'individualist' type anarchists ended up predictably going far right, and those that are collectivist ended up with something akin to socialism simply with a greater distrust of the state apparatus, and a grave doubt about the dictatorship of the proletariat. So really, one can reject the left/right paradigm as being inaccurate or limiting, but I have never accepted the Anarchist claim that they have somehow totally transcended it.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Joka wrote:...and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together. It is the opposite of genuine authentic unmitigated multiculturalism or multiracialism.
Sounds like you are describing Nationalism here, and yet... strangely enough... it seems you are talking about Marxism...

He's regurgitating a right-wing talking point that accuses a nefarious cabal of "cultural Marxists" of trying to destroy western civilization through identity movements, it was actually made up by some right wing thinkers and bears no relevance on an actual critique of Marxism.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:30 pm

Vasana wrote:Nature is also spontaneously-ordered, self-organizing, self-mitigating, with self-emergent forms of order that arise from the very depths of and on the edge of chaos.
Thing is that the spontaneous order of nature is not necessarily non-hierarchical. ie Anarchist.

Or, to put it more correctly: it does not seem to us to be non-hierarchical, since we are habituated to seeing everything in terms of hierarchies.

Food chains, for example, will have the largest predator at the top. But the reality is that the largest predator will ultimately be eaten by the smallest microbe. So who is at the "top" of the food chain and who is at the "bottom" now?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:33 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:...but I have never accepted the Anarchist claim that they have somehow totally transcended it.
Don't worry, neither have I.

Then there are examples like the Anarcho-Syndicalist Confederation of Workers in revolutionary Spain being members of the post-monarchical democratic government.

Reality seldom coincides with ideology.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:06 am

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Your type of cultural or racial Marxism is nothing I'm not already acquainted with and is divisive to its core instead of bringing people of all backgrounds together.
Hmmm, let's see, you invoked globalists in combination with corporatism, praised nationalism, and now invoke cultural Marxism. So far this makes three alt-right themes you have repeated here. Just how are your views different than Steve Bannon's? Are you a regular reader of Brietbart? Do you haunt 4chan?
When you want world government over the entire globe I don't care who else uses that terminology that makes a person a globalist. I am not a political conservative and I am in no way affiliated with a conservative party or any political party for that matter.

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