Buddhist Anarchism

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
Norwegian
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Norwegian » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:WTF is majoritarianism???
"Majoritarianism is a traditional political philosophy or agenda that asserts that a majority (sometimes categorized by religion, language, social class, or some other identifying factor) of the population is entitled to a certain degree of primacy in society, and has the right to make decisions that affect the society."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majoritarianism
http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-scie ... itarianism

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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:23 pm

Does not sound anything like Anarchism and direct democracy to me. Quite the opposite actually. Sounds exactly like logic behind monarchism, nationalism, corporatism and a large variety of other (all) authoritarian systems.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.
On a large scale direct democracy works via a confederate system. Representatives of the position of their community meet with other representatives and work on a consensual decision based on the variety of views. Representatives do not have the right to change the view/opinion of their community, nor override it with their personal view. In the case of a complete deadlock over a decision that HAS to be made? Majority vote.
Oh, so you actually mean a Republican Democracy, like the US. As I said elsewhere, direct democracy is fine in small communities. It does not scale.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:Oh, so you actually mean a Republican Democracy, like the US. As I said elsewhere, direct democracy is fine in small communities. It does not scale.
What are you talking about dude? Does what I described sound anything like the current U$ system? Where is the consensus decision making and direct democracy in the current U$ system? The U$ system is (loosely) based on representative democracy. The representatives make decisions ON BEHALF of (and most times in direct contradiction to the needs of) their constituent. It is NOTHING like what I described.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Oh, so you actually mean a Republican Democracy, like the US. As I said elsewhere, direct democracy is fine in small communities. It does not scale.
What are you talking about dude? Does what I described sound anything like the current U$ system? Where is the consensus decision making and direct democracy in the current U$ system?
In New England and elsewhere, consensus decision making and direct democracy is alive and well in New England town halls, etc.
The U$ system is (loosely) based on representative democracy. The representatives make decisions ON BEHALF of (and most times in direct contradiction to the needs of) their constituent.
Not if those representatives wish to keep their jobs.

The main problem with US Democracy is not how the system is set up at present; the main problem is apathetic citizenry.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kirtu
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by kirtu » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: It is possible to ameliorate some of the inequality that is in the world, but this also depends on the merit of the recipient.
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies. Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).
....
The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.
The US is only 15% of the climate change problem. This is bad but there is not much to be done.

It is clear to me that I cannot affect change in the US at any level. Therefore I will leave. I do have to stay for 2-6 more years though (unless ...) .....

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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kirtu
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by kirtu » Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, it won't actually. On a large scale, "direct democracy" poses the very real risk of majoritarian extremism.
On a large scale direct democracy works via a confederate system. Representatives of the position of their community meet with other representatives and work on a consensual decision based on the variety of views. Representatives do not have the right to change the view/opinion of their community, nor override it with their personal view. In the case of a complete deadlock over a decision that HAS to be made? Majority vote.
The Paris student experiments of 1968 - Daniel Cohn-Bendit and his realization (and disappointment) that direct democracy has problems (he was more direct back then ....).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:03 am

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
This statement is true but it is also ridiculous because it implies that there is little that can be done.

We can massively reduce inequality by restructuring societies. Or we can move to Norway (or Australia or Holland or ...).
....
The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.
The US is only 15% of the climate change problem. This is bad but there is not much to be done.
We and Europe are 100 percent responsible for the present climate effects that we are witnessing now (Industrial Revolution effects). We have diminished our footprint some, but there are a lot of effects that we are still indirectly responsible for.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by binocular » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:05 am

kirtu wrote:The US is only 15% of the climate change problem. This is bad but there is not much to be done.
Count in all the dirty industry that the US has outsourced to other and esp. to poor countries, and all the industry to produce the things the US unnecessarily imports from other countries (does the US really need to import toys, food, clothes, shoes etc. from China??).

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:45 am

Malcolm wrote:In New England and elsewhere, consensus decision making and direct democracy is alive and well in New England town halls, etc.
That is not enough. If a consensus decision is reached at a local level, only to be overturned at a national level due to political and economic affiliation (and not the validity of the content of the decision), then that is not direct democracy.
The main problem with US Democracy is not how the system is set up at present; the main problem is apathetic citizenry.
Has it ever occurred to you that the citizentry is apathetic because they know that the system does nothing to actually represent their needs?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:57 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:In New England and elsewhere, consensus decision making and direct democracy is alive and well in New England town halls, etc.
That is not enough. If a consensus decision is reached at a local level, only to be overturned at a national level due to political and economic affiliation (and not the validity of the content of the decision), then that is not direct democracy.
The main problem with US Democracy is not how the system is set up at present; the main problem is apathetic citizenry.
Has it ever occurred to you that the citizentry is apathetic because they know that the system does nothing to actually represent their needs?
The scope of direct democracy must necessarily be limited to local decisions, for example, whether a town wishes to allocate money to installing a broadbadn network.

Direct democracy simple does not work at a national level, and shouldn't. For example, I would not want people voting directly issues of national security about which they necessarily have little or no information.

As for your second observation, an engaged citizenry can have their needs represented and met. Countless examples in the US show this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by DGA » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:01 pm

There are other forms of direct democracy that are worth considering. Employee-owned enterprises are an excellent example.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:Direct democracy simple does not work at a national level, and shouldn't. For example, I would not want people voting directly issues of national security about which they necessarily have little or no information.
Whereas the educated and informed dudes in the Pentagon make all the right decisions when it comes to national interests. They are not driven by financial and political bodies??? :rolleye:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Direct democracy simple does not work at a national level, and shouldn't. For example, I would not want people voting directly issues of national security about which they necessarily have little or no information.
Whereas the educated and informed dudes in the Pentagon make all the right decisions when it comes to national interests. They are not driven by financial and political bodies??? :rolleye:
As the armed forces are under the control of the civilian government, they are supposed to be driven by our political body, the Congress. Only the Congress has the right to declare war. The executive branch has limited abilities to use the military in the case of attacks by other countries, but does not have the right to declare war [hence most of the so called "war on terror" is based on the latter idea].

The people in the Pentagon as well as the Intelligence Services are generally quite highly educated. For example, the Pentagon has accepted human-driven climate change for decades, irrespective of the deluded opinions of the flat-earthers presently in the White House and the GOP in general. So yes, in matters of military goals and strategies, I generally think when it comes to defense of the US, they do a pretty good job. When there are screwups like the Iraq Invasion, it is not on the military, it is on the civilian government. In my opinion, in a direct democracy campaign US citizens would have overwhelmingly made the choice to invade both Iraq and Afghanistan. So, again, in my opinion, the Congress acted out the will of the people in those two wars, as foolish as they were.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:...in my opinion, the Congress acted out the will of the people in those two wars, as foolish as they were.
:rolling:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Vasana » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:00 pm

DGA wrote:There are other forms of direct democracy that are worth considering. Employee-owned enterprises are an excellent example.
Yup, co-ops are a good thing.
Commons based P2P networks & open-source, platform cooperatisvism are really kicking off at the moment but it's still early days.

http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/

Despite being quite into systems theory & whole living systems for a while now, I only came across 'Holarchy' the other day. Both in an ecological sense and as an alternative mode of governance and organization.

http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Governance_Holarchy
Holarchies and their constituent holons are non-reductive ways of viewing reality. We use the holon construct when we want to represent something simultaneously as a part and as a whole. Series of holons form multilevel holarchies (Koestler, 1967). Various forms of the holon/holarchy construct have always been evident in the literature on holons. Arthur Koestler (1967) emphasises the ecological form in his endeavour to represent biological, organisational and social levels in a hierarchy of spatial and functional relationships.
It's encouraging to know that there are lots of decentralized movements & cooperative platforms being spawned. I don't think that there will be enough of these soon enough to really undermine the prevalence of centralized power structures, but their emergence will still be a necessary step in the small-scale demonstration that there are other ways of organizing. Once enough local cases have proved successful, they'll be more readily adopted elsewhere.
Last edited by Vasana on Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:01 pm

Either I am seriously underestimating the stupidity of American citizens or you (Malcolm) are underestimating the power of mass media (or a little of both)...

Regardless, I think we can both agree that an Anarchist society requires a little more than a change in the mechanics of governance and decision making.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:Either I am seriously underestimating the stupidity of American citizens or you (Malcolm) are underestimating the power of mass media (or a little of both)...
Direct democracy, as with all democracies, requires that a) people are educated and b) have good information upon which base their decisions.


If either of those two conditions are not met, then not only will direct democracy fail, all forms of democracy will fail.

This is why I maintain that while direct democracy is great at the town meeting level; it does not scale to running a large country and never can because even with a good education, no individual person can hope to have a grasp of all the information needed to make good policy decisions about every aspect of a nation, and if asked to weigh in on these questions, average people are likely to respond from a position of an absence of knowledge, unlike their intimate knowledge of their local community.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Vasana
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Vasana » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:13 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_cooperative

More info on Platform cooperatives. I honestly don't know enough about the current state of intentional anarchist communities, but there's a lot of activity within the platform cooperative movements which naturally have some overlaps with some systems of anarchy. Not only that, but i think they're one of our best shots in actually tackling a lot of world problems. With any-luck , crowd-solving local and global issues will soon begin to surpass crowd-funding.
Platform cooperativism draws upon other attempts at digital disintermediation, including the peer-to-peer production movement, led by Michel Bauwens and the P2P Foundation, which advocates for “new kinds of democratic and economic participation” that rest “upon the free participation of equal partners, engaged in the production of common resources,” as well as the radically-distributed, non-market mechanisms of networked peer-production promoted by Yochai Benkler. Marjorie Kelly's book Owning Our Future contributed the distinction between democratic and extractive ownership design to this discussion.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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kirtu
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by kirtu » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: ....
The USA is the problem, run as it is by a bunch of climate denying gangsters. So, to the extent that we can affect change in the world, it is best to try and affect change here in this country.
The US is only 15% of the climate change problem. This is bad but there is not much to be done.
We and Europe are 100 percent responsible for the present climate effects that we are witnessing now (Industrial Revolution effects). We have diminished our footprint some, but there are a lot of effects that we are still indirectly responsible for.
Western Europe has diminished it's 1990 greenhouse gas emisions by 25%-50% depending on the country whereas US greenhouse gas emissions have increased since 1990. Even though they decreased during the Obama years they are still higher than in 1990.

Western Europe has taken significant action and the United States hasn’t.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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