Buddhist Anarchism

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:09 am

Joka wrote:
I wasn't aware genuine anarchism was left or right given that such social political paradigms are a more recent phenomena going on only a few hundred years or so. I personally view the world we live in as being beyond right and left social political paradigms in that we live in a post socialist or capitalist world.
A lot of flowery language, but it's hard to say that someone like Bakunin wasn't "left" by any reasonable standard one would use today.
State tyranny is just tyranny whether it is a left or right one. Tyranny is rife with leftism just as much as it is with social conservative movements.
This is really just grandstanding, with no specifics.
The global plantation is just that whether it is a conservative privatized one or a socialist national public one. I hardly see leftists any better than those of the center right and vice versa. There is one thing the left and right agrees upon and that is oligarchic corporatism which is the same no matter what nation you travel through these days around the world.
Who are "leftists"? What "leftist" agrees on oligarchic corporatism? geez man, define some terms if you want to wade directly into this kind of territory.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:17 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote:
I wasn't aware genuine anarchism was left or right given that such social political paradigms are a more recent phenomena going on only a few hundred years or so. I personally view the world we live in as being beyond right and left social political paradigms in that we live in a post socialist or capitalist world.
A lot of flowery language, but it's hard to say that someone like Bakunin wasn't "left" by any reasonable standard one would use today.
State tyranny is just tyranny whether it is a left or right one. Tyranny is rife with leftism just as much as it is with social conservative movements.
This is really just grandstanding, with no specifics.
The global plantation is just that whether it is a conservative privatized one or a socialist national public one. I hardly see leftists any better than those of the center right and vice versa. There is one thing the left and right agrees upon and that is oligarchic corporatism which is the same no matter what nation you travel through these days around the world.
Who are "leftists"?
Yes, he probably would be defined as a leftist although he certainly was no Marxist by any stretch of the imagination somebody of which he challenged thoroughly. As for me I would say that I'm a mixed bag in that I have some leftist views and conservative ones as well.

What was I grandstanding exactly? I was merely point out that tyranny is the same whether it is in the guise of conservatism or leftist politics.

You were grandstanding I think about right wing views without bothering going into details.

Do I really have to mention every political institution of the left? I think you're smart enough to know what leftism or leftists is.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:20 am

Whether it is communist China or the capitalist United States oligarchic corporatism reigns supreme.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:37 pm

Joka wrote:we live in a post socialist or capitalist world.
No, we live in a Capitalist World. Capitalism has won. However, there are people of nationalist sentiment that are unhappy that it did not also involve the continued economic ascendency of the Europe and the US. Now we have competition, and the nationalists among us don't like it very much.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:we live in a post socialist or capitalist world.
No, we live in a Capitalist World. Capitalism has won. However, there are people of nationalist sentiment that are unhappy that it did not also involve the continued economic ascendency of the Europe and the US. Now we have competition, and the nationalists among us don't like it very much.
Communism collapsed for the most part with the end of the U.S.S.R. and what's left of communist nations are not purely communism at all like China for example but instead reflect something else.

Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over. So yes, I stand by my assertion that we live in a post capitalist and socialist world where a new paradigm is emerging. What that is obviously is uncertain at the moment. There is much uncertainty with the world we live in now.

Really though the flaws of capitalism, socialism, and communism is everywhere to see. None are more better than the other and all end up with tyrannical despots.

I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:06 pm

Joka wrote:
Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over.
You are kidding yourself.

I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.
Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over.
You are kidding yourself.

I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.
Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.
Not kidding myself actually as there are limits to monopoly economics and finance where eventually parasitic crony capitalism collapses on itself. This will become more apparent within the next decade. We are reaching the threshold of those very limits right now.

Nationalism can be reformed like anything else and doesn't have to be so discriminating. I believe all people have a right to autonomy and self determination.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Joka wrote: You were grandstanding I think about right wing views without bothering going into details.
I'm not the one climbing up on a soapbox here.
Do I really have to mention every political institution of the left? I think you're smart enough to know what leftism or leftists is.
You don't have to, but I think if you want people to take your seriously you ought to go into a little more detail than simply saying "things are like this obviously", with little to no analysis or explanation.
What was I grandstanding exactly? I was merely point out that tyranny is the same whether it is in the guise of conservatism or leftist politics.
What on earth does this mean?" because different systems both have produced bad results under some cricumstances they are "the same"? Fuzzy thinking.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:33 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Capitalism is in the process of collapsing the world over.
You are kidding yourself.

I think here in the west nationalism gets a horrible reputation but elsewhere in the world nationalism is appreciated.
Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.
Not kidding myself actually as there are limits to monopoly economics and finance where eventually parasitic crony capitalism collapses on itself. This will become more apparent within the next decade. We are reaching the threshold of those very limits right now.

Nationalism can be reformed like anything else and doesn't have to be so discriminating. I believe all people have a right to autonomy and self determination.
People have been predicting the collapse of capitalism since Marx. They have all been wrong.

We are definitely reaching environmental sustainability limits, but that has nothing to with capitalism (apart from the fact that capitalism is destroying the planet and the only way to prevent that is a global government that sets strict environmental limitations).

Nationalism is a disease. It has no place in the modern world. Eventually, people will see this. It might take them a couple of centuries. Hopefully we will not blow up the planet before then.

People have a right to autonomy and self-determination. This does not mean that Nationalism is the way to go.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:35 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote: You were grandstanding I think about right wing views without bothering going into details.
I'm not the one climbing up on a soapbox here.
Do I really have to mention every political institution of the left? I think you're smart enough to know what leftism or leftists is.
You don't have to, but I think if you want people to take your seriously you ought to go into a little more detail than simply saying "things are like this obviously", with little to no analysis or explanation.
What was I grandstanding exactly? I was merely point out that tyranny is the same whether it is in the guise of conservatism or leftist politics.
What on earth does this mean?" because different systems both have produced bad results under some cricumstances they are "the same"? Fuzzy thinking.
Soapbox? What is soapbox? Who's doing the climbing? It is interesting you accuse me of offering no analysis or explanation of things when that is what I am seeing from people here also.

Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
You are kidding yourself.




Nationalism inevitably rests on creating otherness. Otherness leads to pogroms and downright oppressions. Nationalism is a political drug.
Not kidding myself actually as there are limits to monopoly economics and finance where eventually parasitic crony capitalism collapses on itself. This will become more apparent within the next decade. We are reaching the threshold of those very limits right now.

Nationalism can be reformed like anything else and doesn't have to be so discriminating. I believe all people have a right to autonomy and self determination.
People have been predicting the collapse of capitalism since Marx. They have all been wrong.

We are definitely reaching environmental sustainability limits, but that has nothing to with capitalism (apart from the fact that capitalism is destroying the planet and the only way to prevent that is a global government that sets strict environmental limitations).

Nationalism is a disease. It has no place in the modern world. Eventually, people will see this. It might take them a couple of centuries. Hopefully we will not blow up the planet before then.

People have a right to autonomy and self-determination. This does not mean that Nationalism is the way to go.
Besides environmental impact there also structural problems economically within capitalism also, that's what I was referring to. Those structural problems I and many others believe will ultimately lead it to its demise.

I think your faith in global governance is misleading and in error in that I don't think any group of human beings can be entrusted to control or dictate the entire planet along with all the people that live on it.

Nationalism is a disease? How so? It certainly has its problems and I won't disagree with that but the so called alternatives to it I don't see being any much better.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:42 pm

Joka wrote: Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote: Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:47 pm

Joka wrote:
Soapbox? What is soapbox? Who's doing the climbing? It is interesting you accuse me of offering no analysis or explanation of things when that is what I am seeing from people here also.
"Everything is the same because I don't like any system", sounds pretty soap-boxy to me. I just think if you want to make bold claims like you are you should spend more time fleshing out the details, if you want to be taken seriously at least.
Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
This is simply a way of avoiding analysis of different systems, sure, all extant systems have used force and coercion, but the conclusion you draw here that they are "the same" is plain silliness .

You've already made a couple of weird claims here, that Bakunin (a guy who talked extensively about emancipation of the working class) was somehow not on the left side of the spectrum. Then you've also referred to China as if it's some prime example of Communism. Look, there's plenty to criticize as regards Marxism and Communism, for that matter Capitalism, but so far your actual critique is non existent.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:49 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote: Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

I would actually like you to answer it, I don't think it's cool to jump head-first into contentious political conversations and then refuse to play ball.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Joka
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote:
Soapbox? What is soapbox? Who's doing the climbing? It is interesting you accuse me of offering no analysis or explanation of things when that is what I am seeing from people here also.
"Everything is the same because I don't like any system", sounds pretty soap-boxy to me. I just think if you want to make bold claims like you are you should spend more time fleshing out the details, if you want to be taken seriously at least.
Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
This is simply a way of avoiding analysis of different systems, sure, all extant systems have used force and coercion, but the conclusion you draw here that they are "the same" is plain silliness .

You've already made a couple of weird claims here, that Bakunin (a guy who talked extensively about emancipation of the working class) was somehow not on the left side of the spectrum. Then you've also referred to China as if it's some prime example of Communism. Look, there's plenty to criticize as regards Marxism and Communism, for that matter Capitalism, but so far your actual critique is non existent.
Alright, I don't view any government organization being any better than the other which is why I am an anarchist but an unorthodox one at that in that I reject all politicized variants of anarchism. I'm what you call an apolitical person really. I reject all political aspirations because history is a testament that people cannot be entrusted with any kind of political power.

Bakunin was a liberal in his day but was not a leftist by a Marxist or communist definition of the word. That's what I was trying to get at and I should of been more clear on that point.

China is the only functional communist nation that is left but what is more interesting is that it is not a purely communist nation either as it has adopted a capitalistic economic and corporatist model within the Chinese Communist Party. What I was getting at is that either communist nations have collapsed like the U.S.S.R. or have adopted non communist principles and ideals just to survive.
Last edited by Joka on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:05 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

I would actually like you to answer it, I don't think it's cool to jump head-first into contentious political conversations and then refuse to play ball.
Usually people who ask questions like, what tyranny exists in nations like the United States are the same kind of people that want to deny any such tyranny even exists. As for me I've lived it and I feel no need for explanation especially if people are just going to go into full dismissal.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:10 pm

Joka wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Joka wrote:
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.

I would actually like you to answer it, I don't think it's cool to jump head-first into contentious political conversations and then refuse to play ball.
Usually people who ask questions like, what tyranny exists in nations like the United States are the same kind of people that want to deny any such tyranny even exists. As for me I've lived it and I feel no need for explanation especially if people are just going to go into full dismissal.
Either make your points or don't start conversations like this. You have no idea what anyone is "like", you should be willing to explain yourself if you're interested in actual conversation. If not, why bother in the first place?
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

Malcolm
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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:16 pm

Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote: Yes, no matter the different politics or government organizations tyranny is same and is employed with the same standard.
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.

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Re: Buddhist Anarchism

Post by Joka » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Joka wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
So you are suggesting the US is a "tyranny?" If so how, specifically?
If you have to ask that question I don't think any level of explanation would suit your expected response.
I don't think you have a real reply. But if you do, now is the time to trot it out.
Oppressed and disenfranchised people have to provide evidence for their own oppression or disenfranchisement? :rolling:
Last edited by Joka on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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