What is wrong with feminists these days?

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:38 pm

rory wrote:Can we get back to the big issue of abortion and what to do about it. It's all ready too late and dangerous and expensive for a woman to have one.

Let's go back to the source - men. What should men do to prevent unwanted births? This just doesn't happen to women randomly (pace the sperm bank) men have to ejaculate near a woman for conception to happen so let's return to them as being all important in this issue. What do men need to do?
gassho
Rory

Um, better publicly funded sex education and birth control, you know, the kind all the "pro life" folks rail against

Go hang out with people who are truly poor in this country, and you see quickly how little the educational system and whatever other scant resources there are available actually do to teach people to make responsible decisions about sex and family planning.

Anyway, one place where I can agree with Jesse's list is on some of the things involving children.

I've stayed home with my kids (due mainly to childcare cost) for a number of years while I work on my education/career change. I get a lot of shit from other men (though none will ever say so to my face, only online etc.) about "woman's work" (like caring for your kids is only woman's work), surprisingly though, I also have caught a ton of flack from women/Moms...many of whom seem to belief that a man who likes kids is somehow creepy - this kind of attitude is pervasive enough for me to agree that this is an area where there is definitely some sexism directed towards men. I also agree that the default attitude towards men in the legal system is often problematic.

The difference of course....it is basically *my choice* whether or not to do this, that is not so for women, and the amount to which it ceases to be a choice increases the further you go down the socioeconomic ladder.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:46 pm

rory wrote:Can we get back to the big issue of abortion and what to do about it. It's all ready too late and dangerous and expensive for a woman to have one.

Let's go back to the source - men. What should men do to prevent unwanted births? This just doesn't happen to women randomly (pace the sperm bank) men have to ejaculate near a woman for conception to happen so let's return to them as being all important in this issue. What do men need to do?
gassho
Rory
This is just about the stupidest post I have ever read. :smile:
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:49 pm

Jesse wrote:1. Female privilege is being able to walk down the street at night without people crossing the street because they’re automatically afraid of you.
Really, not being regarded as a threat is a privilege? Since when?
2. Female privilege is being able to approach someone and ask them out without being labeled “creepy.”
Ummmm, I have been hit on by some creepy women. Nope.
3. Female privilege is being able to get drunk and have sex without being considered a rapist. Female privilege is being able to engage in the same action as another person but be considered the innocent party by default.
When someone gets drunk and forces his penis into someone's mouth, rectum, or vagina, this is rightly considered rape, whether the women involved is drunk or not.
4. Female privilege is being able to turn on the TV and see yourself represented in a positive way. Female privilege is shows like King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond where women are portrayed as attractive, competent people while men are shown as ugly, lazy slobs.
I think you are leaving out a lot of other stereotypes of women. Anyway, nothing you have brought up illustrates female privilege.
5. Female privilege is the idea that women and children should be the first rescued from any sort of emergency situation. Female privilege is saving yourself before you save others and not being viewed as a monster.
So now you are including children as part of female privilege? Anyway, this does not fly. The women and children who get rescued first are the women and children of white men, always, in every emergency.
6. Female privilege is being able to decide not to have a child.
Yes, I agree, their body, their privilege.
7. Female privilege is not having to support a child financially for 18 years when you didn’t want to have it in the first place.
Huh? What do you mean?
8. Female privilege is never being told to “take it like a man” or “man up.”
Huh?
9. Female privilege is knowing that people would take it as a gravely serious issue if someone raped you. Female privilege is being able to laugh at a “prison rape” joke.
I see, so if someone commits a crime against you, and this is taken seriously, this is a "privilege," rather than a right to be free from assault?
10. Female privilege is being able to divorce your spouse when your marriage is no longer working because you know you will most likely be granted custody of your children.
You do understand that when men and women divorce, it used to be the case that the standard of living for divorced women with children declines 37% while a man's improved. This has changed in the last decade or so because of improvements in pay equity. These days both men and women can expect a decrease of about 25% in standard of living following a divorce. Some privilege.
11. Female privilege is being able to call the police in a domestic dispute knowing they will take your side. Female privilege is not having your gender work against where police are involved.
This is not a privilege, this based on the fact that men beat women and children. It is a preventative measure which prevents a great number of assaults and murders. So, not a privilege.
12. Female privilege is being able to be caring or empathetic without people being surprised.
Dude, you are really reaching on this one.
13. Female privilege is not having to take your career seriously because you can depend on marrying someone who makes more money than you do. Female privilege is being able to be a “stay at home mom” and not seem like a loser.
This is so wrong on so many levels. This is not reflected in today's economy on any level.
14. Female privilege is being able to cry your way out of a speeding ticket.
Ummm, no, this is a result of male sexism.
15. Female privilege is being favored by teachers in elementary, middle and high school. Female privilege is graduating high school more often, being accepted to more colleges, and generally being encouraged and supported along the way.
No, this is really nonsense.
16. Female privilege being able to have an opinion without someone tell you you’re just Misogynist .”
No, they just get, "Why are you being such a bitch?"
17. Female privilege is being able to talk about sexism without appearing self-serving.
No, this is a result of the fact that there is sexism against women, it is pervasive, and it is damaging to the people who experience it and perpetrate it, both.
18. Female privilege is arrogantly believing that sexism only applies to women.
You have yet to demonstrate any so called female privilege at all. A women's right to her own body is a right, not a privilege. Since the legal definition of life begins in the second trimester, in this country women have the right to choose. I support the right to choose, but not abortion itself.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:54 pm

8. Female privilege is never being told to “take it like a man” or “man up.”
This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. Have you ever lived with a woman? Once you do so, if you are at all honest with yourself you will see that by and large, as daily life goes, the female side of any family unit (especially with kids) does the vast majority of "manning up". There is so much shit automatically expected of woman in relationships it's surrreal. They are expected to be completely selfless while men can basically get away with being slugs. I know men who can't even (and don't think they need to) know how to do things like cook themselves an egg. One I know can't even manage to make a sandwich or wash a dish competently. I guess being a grown up is "wimminz wirk" for some folks.

The "man up" mentality has nothing to do with feminism, and if anything comes from the idea that men should only have certain jobs in the division of family labor, and that they should accept those without complaint...which doesn't happen anyway.

Literally, I know men who are basically babies whose wives take care of their every whim, so they can sit around bitching about feminism. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Jesse » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote: If you actually bothered with criticism of modern feminism and identity movements, you would know that some "feminists" point out this exact thing - that race and gender cannot be separated from class, which plays a huge role in what kind of discrimination people face. Nonetheless, if you think being a white male does not afford you overall privilege, you are being blind IMO. A woman in your comparable economic/social state faces more obstacles, not only that, but they increase exponentially as you descend the social ladder.

I don't know any feminists. The only experience I have with them is online. Like I said if there are more moderate feminists, I have never heard from them. I thought feminism was a good idea until I started reading articles written by them, because they do indeed reek of an anti-men sentiment, entitlement, and pure generalized judging of all 'white men'. Which I find it incredibly stupid.
"Heard from them"? How can you "hear from" anyone about a huge subject like feminism online? You yourself choose what you read what you expose yourself to, you've basically just admitted that beyond what you choose to read, you don't know any feminists. There are uninformed people across the entire political spectrum. Right now, especially identity-warriors on the left of a certain age make really bad arguments.
There was an article not too long ago where a group of feminists wanted their school principle to be fired unless he made a public announcement at his school acknowledging and apologizing for his 'white male privilege', etc. There forums are filled with questions on how to 'educate' men in their lives of how privileged they are etc. If you go and point out the ways in which women are privileged, you'll instantly be cast a misogynist, verbally attacked and usually quickly banned. Women also have privileges in society which men do not. I'm sure everyone can think of at least a few.
Ok, go ahead and name the rights women that have men don't. As to some second-hand talking point , without real context, I can't really comment. There are for sure some really irritating SJW types out there, I have had run ins with them myself.
I don't pick and choose articles, It's usually either something I find randomly, stumble with stumble-upon (in the feminism category), or find just by searching for "feminism blog, feminism, feminist forums", etc.

One right women have is deciding the fate of the child in any relationship. Men have no real input ultimately, it's totally up to the female, and if the relationship ends with the woman giving birth men are always liable to pay child support, even if the guy didn't want to have a child. Basically it's a consequence without being able to change anything, except to not have sex at all. While females ultimately do get to choose.

Sexism also ends up working in women's favor occasionally, namely men being polite to women, opening doors for them. They occasionally do get jobs, and college acceptances because institutions need to fill quotas. All this stuff is still sexist, but no-one complains about it. Equality would be no difference at all between men and women. This is not how it is. These "sexist, racist" benefits only end up perpetuating prejudices because any person who doesn't get these benefits automatically feels left out, or discriminated against. I don't know where people get that life is so much easier for men than women, life isn't easy for anyone. Even the small privileges people get for being a specific color, gender etc don't make that much difference in peoples lives.

Think of the stereotypes men face, they should be strong, unemotional, not cry or whine about circumstances, they shouldn't display feminine traits, boys who like pink or act like girls are most definitely discriminated against. Gay white men are still white men, and nobody would argue they face discrimination, and the simple fact they are gay would instantly counteract any benefits from there white maleness. Mentally ill people are still discriminated against no matter what color, ethnicity or gender they are, and when discrimination occurs Nobody would defend them like people jump to defend feminism or females. The same goes for fat people, people these days think discriminating against fat people is a GOOD thing. After all they are costing us money in healthcare, they don't take care of themselves, there lazy, etc.

So go ahead and link some moderate, or more liberal feminism blogs or articles. I'll happily read them.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
I've stayed home with my kids (due mainly to childcare cost) for a number of years while I work on my education/career change. I get a lot of shit from other men (though none will ever say so to my face, only online etc.) about "woman's work" (like caring for your kids is only woman's work), surprisingly though, I also have caught a ton of flack from women/Moms...many of whom seem to belief that a man who likes kids is somehow creepy - this kind of attitude is pervasive enough for me to agree that this is an area where there is definitely some sexism directed towards men. I also agree that the default attitude towards men in the legal system is often problematic.

The difference of course....it is basically *my choice* whether or not to do this, that is not so for women, and the amount to which it ceases to be a choice increases the further you go down the socioeconomic ladder.
But this is not female privilege, this is an example of male sexism towards women, such that you get criticized for doing "women's work." So you are experiencing sexism from men based on the fact that they devalue their mother's own job. How sick is that?

Moreover, the default attitude towards men in the justice system is based on the high incidence of men in the legal system being there because assault and rape are perpetrated by men on women. That being said, according to the Bureau of Justice itself, between 2006 and 2010 65 percent of all rapes and sexual assaults go unreported. In general, nearly half of all violent crimes in this period went unreported.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Jesse » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
8. Female privilege is never being told to “take it like a man” or “man up.”
This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. Have you ever lived with a woman? Once you do so, if you are at all honest with yourself you will see that by and large, as daily life goes, the female side of any family unit (especially with kids) does the vast majority of "manning up". There is so much shit automatically expected of woman in relationships it's surrreal. They are expected to be completely selfless while men can basically get away with being slugs. I know men who can't even (and don't think they need to) know how to do things like cook themselves an egg. One I know can't even manage to make a sandwich or wash a dish competently. I guess being a grown up is "wimminz wirk" for some folks.

The "man up" mentality has nothing to do with feminism, and if anything comes from the idea that men should only have certain jobs in the division of family labor, and that they should accept those without complaint...which doesn't happen anyway.

Literally, I know men who are basically babies whose wives take care of their every whim, so they can sit around bitching about feminism. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Some men don't represent all or even most men. These are the same sorts generalizations I was being accused of making vs feminists.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:02 pm

Think of the stereotypes men face, they should be strong, unemotional, not cry or whine about circumstances, they shouldn't display feminine traits, boys who like pink or act like girls are most definitely discriminated against. Gay white men are still white men, and nobody would argue they face discrimination, and the simple fact they are gay would instantly counteract any benefits from there white maleness. Mentally ill people are still discriminated against no matter what color, ethnicity or gender they are, and when discrimination occurs Nobody would defend them like people jump to defend feminism or females. The same goes for fat people, people these days think discriminating against fat people is a GOOD thing. After all they are costing us money in healthcare, they don't take care of themselves, there lazy, etc.
This actually speaks in favor of feminism, rather than against it, since nearly any feminist would agree with these points. Yep, and all these minus sexual orientation are worse for women - especially being fat. I don't know what feminism or political criticism you've been reading..but even the most myopic feminists I've known don't believe that being a woman is the only cause of discrimination.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Jesse » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Jesse wrote:1. Female privilege is being able to walk down the street at night without people crossing the street because they’re automatically afraid of you.
Really, not being regarded as a threat is a privilege? Since when?

..............................
Your arguments are so completely disingenuous it's not even worth responding to. I have demonstrated female privilege pretty well. You are just choosing to ignore it, or misrepresent facts, or outright ignore reality.
9. Female privilege is knowing that people would take it as a gravely serious issue if someone raped you. Female privilege is being able to laugh at a “prison rape” joke.
I see, so if someone commits a crime against you, and this is taken seriously, this is a "privilege," rather than a right to be free from assault?
No, it points out that when men make similar claims the general opinion is 'men can't be raped, men would just enjoy being raped, you can't rape the willing, women can't rape men'

When a woman brings rape up, it's instantly given serious credence.
Last edited by Jesse on Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:04 pm

Jesse wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
8. Female privilege is never being told to “take it like a man” or “man up.”
This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. Have you ever lived with a woman? Once you do so, if you are at all honest with yourself you will see that by and large, as daily life goes, the female side of any family unit (especially with kids) does the vast majority of "manning up". There is so much shit automatically expected of woman in relationships it's surrreal. They are expected to be completely selfless while men can basically get away with being slugs. I know men who can't even (and don't think they need to) know how to do things like cook themselves an egg. One I know can't even manage to make a sandwich or wash a dish competently. I guess being a grown up is "wimminz wirk" for some folks.

The "man up" mentality has nothing to do with feminism, and if anything comes from the idea that men should only have certain jobs in the division of family labor, and that they should accept those without complaint...which doesn't happen anyway.

Literally, I know men who are basically babies whose wives take care of their every whim, so they can sit around bitching about feminism. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
Some men don't represent all or even most men. These are the same sorts generalizations I was being accused of making vs feminists.
No they don't, but particularly in terms of generation...in heterosexual relationships, day to day management falls on the shoulders of women to a huge degree. It's something you notice more and more once you have a family, and tons of stuff to do every day.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by rory » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:12 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
rory wrote:Can we get back to the big issue of abortion and what to do about it. It's all ready too late and dangerous and expensive for a woman to have one.

Let's go back to the source - men. What should men do to prevent unwanted births? This just doesn't happen to women randomly (pace the sperm bank) men have to ejaculate near a woman for conception to happen so let's return to them as being all important in this issue. What do men need to do?
gassho
Rory
This is just about the stupidest post I have ever read. :smile:
I know, if all these fab men were actually using birth control responsibly abortions would never happen. Obviously men are doing a crap job at limiting their fertility. Why? Why does our larger society accept that and not target young adolescent males? The dismissive nature of most here to the post, just shows me how fatuous the discussion is. It's easier to loathe and demonize women who have abortions than tackle the nature of male sexuality.

Male sexuality is truly at the center of this issue. What are the drives of male sexuality and sense of entitlement that preclude a serious discussion?
gassho
Rory
ps: dzongchungpa always has a dismissive comment when I post. He's a male and I never have females on DW who dislike what I say follow me about and do such. This again is a good example of creepy male behavior. Ignore me don't troll/stalk it's pathetic....
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:13 pm

Jesse wrote:
One right women have is deciding the fate of the child in any relationship. Men have no real input ultimately, it's totally up to the female, and if the relationship ends with the woman giving birth men are always liable to pay child support, even if the guy didn't want to have a child. Basically it's a consequence without being able to change anything, except to not have sex at all. While females ultimately do get to choose.
This is so far removed from reality, it is not even funny. Women do not have this right — when a couple decides to get a divorce, what happens is that they lose the right to decide for themselves how to treat their children. They give this right to the courts. Now, it is true, based on a long, sexist precedent that the women's work of raising children is beneath men, and so therefore, custody of children in contentious divorces are often, but not always awarded to mothers. But this state of affairs actually arises from a sexist attitude towards the work of raising children.
Sexism also ends up working in women's favor occasionally, namely men being polite to women, opening doors for them.
Hahahaha, this is so lame dude. We do not live in a society where men open doors for women anymore.
They occasionally do get jobs, and college acceptances because institutions need to fill quotas.
We, in the US, do not have gender quotas for employment, it violates anti-discrimination laws here.

https://www.littler.com/publication-pre ... and-us-law

Think of the stereotypes men face, they should be strong, unemotional, not cry or whine about circumstances, they shouldn't display feminine traits, boys who like pink or act like girls are most definitely discriminated against.
Because of male sexist attitudes about women!!! Really, this should be obvious to you.
Gay white men are still white men, and nobody would argue they face discrimination, and the simple fact they are gay would instantly counteract any benefits from there white maleness.
Gay men, whether white or not, still experience a great deal of discrimination. And the discrimination they face is a result, principally, of sexist attitudes towards women.
Mentally ill people are still discriminated against no matter what color, ethnicity or gender they are, and when discrimination occurs Nobody would defend them like people jump to defend feminism or females.
Mentally ill people are not 51% of the population. That said, discrimination against mentally ill people is a crime and where it happens, it should be remedied.
The same goes for fat people, people these days think discriminating against fat people is a GOOD thing. After all they are costing us money in healthcare, they don't take care of themselves, there lazy, etc.
[/quote][/quote]

Same as for the above.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:17 pm

Jesse wrote:
I have demonstrated female privilege pretty well.
I think not.


No, it points out that when men make similar claims the general opinion is 'men can't be raped, men would just enjoy being raped, you can't rape the willing, women can't rape men'
When a man is raped, it is usually, though not always by other men. Rape cases against women generally involve statutory rape charges. Not forceful sexual assaults.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Astus » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:20 pm

Where is all this anger from against the idea that women are as much human beings as men? We are all humans, and biological sex does not define most, if not every, qualities of one's personality. How is this view so dangerous?

Female privilege is not something I have seen anywhere. Certainly, it can happen to some men that they feel frustrated because it looks like as if women had it easier in getting sex and securing relationships, that is actually nothing else but the misguided projection of one's own desires - i.e. as one feels like he'd be happy with any woman (as long as they fit one's ideals of course, so it's not at all 'free for all', but that's not acknowledged), while at the same time women don't seem to be willing to accept him, thus the female privilege. Actually, that kind of 'female privilege' is simple male chauvinism and blaming others for one's own frustration and the feeling of inferiority.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:23 pm

Actually Jesse, as Malcolm and I pointed out...a big chunk of your list are actually results of sexism which affect both men and women, so seeing it as some kind of 'contest' where women have 'won' due to some of these things is flawed. Both sexes suffer due to many of the things you mentioned. In my example, the idea that raising children is exclusively women's job contributes to the idea that men being involved with their children is "creepy" or unmanly, which let me tell you is a very pervasive attitude in middle class America, even among supposed 'liberals'. Of course, it isn't even a consideration at all as you go down the rung, since men are often expected to have little interaction with kids.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:25 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Actually Jesse, as Malcolm and I pointed out...a big chunk of your list are actually results of sexism which affect both men and women, so seeing it as some kind of 'contest' where women have 'won' due to some of these things is flawed. Both sexes suffer due to many of the things you mentioned. In my example, the idea that raising children is exclusively women's job contributes to the idea that men being involved with their children is "creepy" or unmanly, which let me tell you is a very pervasive attitude in middle class America. Of course, it isn't even a consideration at all as you go down the rung, since men are often absent or nearly so.
This is what happens when you a) watch Fox News too much b) read paranoid conservative web sites:

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[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Astus » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:27 pm

rory wrote:Let's go back to the source - men. What should men do to prevent unwanted births?
As I understand the process, conception is generally the result of the activities of two consenting adults (not talking about criminal acts here). Blaming one or the other side is certainly not recognising the other person as a conscious agent. If there is such a thing as an 'unwanted birth', that means there were two people who had been ignorant of where babies came from.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:53 pm

Thanks, Astus. That seems like a good place to hit the 'pause' button on a thread which has had very little connection with the Dharma and has generated far more heat than light.
I will re-open it in a few hours.

:namaste:
Kim

A few hours later ...
Thread re-opened.
Please remember the Terms of Service, everyone.
This thread was posted in "Engaged Buddhism", not the "Lounge", so it would also be really, really good if you can show some connection between your opinions and the Dharma.

:thanks:
Kim

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by dreambow » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:22 am

"Can we get back to the big issue of abortion and what to do about it. It's all ready too late and dangerous and expensive for a woman to have one.

Let's go back to the source - men. What should men do to prevent unwanted births? This just doesn't happen to women randomly (pace the sperm bank) men have to ejaculate near a woman for conception to happen so let's return to them as being all important in this issue. What do men need to do?
gassho" Rory

Rory, I sounds like you are repulsed by men. As a Buddhist you must realize that both men and women suffer; some more some less but its not an easy ride.

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Re: What is wrong with feminists these days?

Post by Jesse » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:11 am

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:Actually Jesse, as Malcolm and I pointed out...a big chunk of your list are actually results of sexism which affect both men and women, so seeing it as some kind of 'contest' where women have 'won' due to some of these things is flawed. Both sexes suffer due to many of the things you mentioned. In my example, the idea that raising children is exclusively women's job contributes to the idea that men being involved with their children is "creepy" or unmanly, which let me tell you is a very pervasive attitude in middle class America. Of course, it isn't even a consideration at all as you go down the rung, since men are often absent or nearly so.
I neither watch fox, or read conservative websites. These generalizations and assumptions really don't make a good point.

Women in general have absolutely no qualms about reaping the benefits of sexism, as long as that is true, beneficial aspects of sexism are still benefits of being female. They are afforded privileges not only because of sexism, but because men grow up being taught women should be treated with respect, while never emphasizing the same expectation towards other men. I never claimed sexism doesn't exist. I claim there is no systematization of sexism. General sexism hardly effects anyone. If you want to talk about something that really hurts people, it's discrimination on a personal level.

I am also claiming men face the exact same types of discrimination, somehow people think this is akin to claiming discrimination against women doesn't matter. It's the opposite; you can't have discrimination against anyone if you want discrimination in general to go away. Just like violence breeds violence. Discrimination breeds Discrimination. Denying men are discriminated against is just as bad as claiming women don't face any discrimination.

Also - Damned near every single man I know does actually open doors for women, so do I. I don't know where you live, but in general most men do these thing's outside of cities. In lesser populated areas, etc. In cities everyone treats everyone else with scorn and a cold shoulder. It doesn't reflect 'every man, or most men'
Here's some more 'privileges' of women:

-from an early age the opposite sex will be instructed never to hit me but I may not be given the same instructions. However, should I strike males I can expect not to be hit back.

-I can produce offspring. A status which grants me an “essential” status in our species that men can never have and which can never be taken away from me.

-I not only have the more valuable and sought after sexual identity, but I also have complete control over my reproductive choice and in some ways over the reproductive choice of the opposite sex. (Men can't force me to get an abortion, but they must still take responsibility for child alimony. While if the man want's to keep the baby, I can choose not to have it at all, essentially giving me a choice over ever paying any sort of alimony )

-People will generally help me more when I’m in need and I will receive no social penalty or stigma for it. The same is generally untrue for men, and there is social stigma against men asking for help.

-When I’m on a date it's generally assumed things will be paid for me.

-If I commit a crime and am convicted I will get a shorter sentence than a man who committed the same crime.

-At a time of war I will never be drafted and ripped from my employment, home, and family and forced to become a military slave.

-I have a department of women’s health whereas men have no such department.

-My gender enjoys more government spending on health than males do.

-When I divorce my husband I will be guaranteed custody of my children unless I am deemed to be unfit. Even if my husband is “Parent of the Year” 10 years running it is unlikely he will get custody over me even if I am a mediocre parent.

-I can wear masculine clothing if it pleases me however men cannot wear feminine clothing without social penalty.

-If I abuse my husband and physically assault him and the police arrive it is almost guaranteed he will go to jail.

-If I am in an abusive relationship there are a multitude of social organizations to help me get away from him, the same is not true for men.

-If I get drunk and have sex, it's very unlikely I will ever be accused of rape. Even if I instigate sexual activity and the man doesn't necessarily want to participate, he will be unlikely to ever file rape charges.

-If I go to a club or bar with my girlfriends and I look my sexy best I have a right to be perturbed when men approach me and hit on me in this public place.

-Even though men die more from prostate cancer than women die from breast cancer I can expect that twice as much funding is given for breast cancer. The same will apply to any female specific disease or malady. (http://www.cancer.gov/about-nci/organiz ... fact-sheet)

-If for some reason I do not get custody of my children I will be expected to pay less child support than another man in my exact same position.

-If I’m caring for a child restrooms for my gender will more likely have a changing table for my convenience.

-People I’ve never met before are more likely to open doors for me, and be kind to me
It doesn't seem much like people are interested in the original topic which was abortion, but It might be best to just move this to the lounge.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

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