We don't exist anywhere?

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
confusedlayman
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We don't exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am

After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking), i found that we dont exist anywhere in any place both in existance and non existance. It is body that arises and pass, feeling is just feeling etc. The thinking I is ego which is fabricated thought. Based on the Imaginery “I” we suffer. Imagine you working hard to earn money to keep golden unicorn happy? It dont exist. So‘I’ thought is just a thought and by thinking impermanence of all things, arising and passing weay of all things, egolessness of all things ... i can analyse the concept of I dont exist anywhere in world or in non existance. This gives me relief temporarily but I am still not able to overcome my defilements. Annhilist think something exist and suddenly dies but I am thinking nothing exist already and nothing to die only the idea of existance ‘I’ disappears. Can someone help me im stuck and confused and I dont have a monk near me.

Metta,
Confused Layman

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Queequeg
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:17 am

I think you got it.

The hard part now is coming to terms with that.

But I'm another blind man, so....
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:08 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking),
Even ideas of Dharma can only get you so far with conceptual thinking, the conceptual mind is narrow and confused by default, that's like it's core function!
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Wayfarer
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:44 am

Yeah stick to practice. Or, don’t let philosophising get ahead of practice, which means much the same.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Ayu
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Ayu » Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:34 am

Sticking to practice is a helpful point of view. Maybe even the only relevant thing.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Matt J
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Matt J » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:24 pm

Defilements are due to habits of mind. People hope they can have a giant cosmic orgasmic experience that wipes all the defilements out, but I have yet to see it. Most of the time we overcome defilements by repeated insight and working our practice over time.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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明安 Myoan
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:28 pm

Buddhas are not only immeasurably wise but also immeasurably compassionate.
Emptiness of self and others is our buddha-potential, there's no conditioned self to keep authority or to have the final say.
Impermanence of self and others is where the merits necessary to realize buddhahood, i.e. virtue and bodhicitta, accrue.
Suffering means there are sentient beings, who are the objects of bodhicitta and all virtues. Since virtue is the basis of happiness, sentient beings give you every happiness. Since bodhicitta is the mind that seeks to awaken for the sake of all sentient beings, they give you buddhahood too.
Implicit to our situation is the path of liberation, which is why it's possible :)

For defilements, with merit and even contrived virtue you stand a better chance.
And since even one thought of bodhicitta is said to exceed a universe full of jewels in terms of benefiting self and others, you avoid falling into confusion (for long anyway).
When wisdom fails, compassion can still be developed, and is still necessary, and helpful. Bodhicitta is always possible.

Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life is considered the training manual on bodhicitta, as well as the Six Paramitas, which are like the provisions for wellbeing in a suffering world. I hope you find it useful.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

confusedlayman
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:54 pm

Thanks for reply friends.

So when someone is suffering, should I see it as just feeling arising and passing away in them, perception that produce suffering arise and passing away in them? if i see everything as non self, i am endingup concerning life as non living thing? its just aggeegates arising and passing away and intracting with other conditions and cause and each aggregate is non living thing as they dont have life inherant in them so all living things are just heap of non living things?

If i think in that way, I cannot able to radiate compassion or metta as I dont know if I have to radiate to their body or feeling or conciousness or anythings as they dont exist anywhere. it is just non-stop dance between the agreegates which are just non living object like things and are empty by themselves with no real existance.

please help me friends, I need authentic reference if possible.

Metta
-Confused LayMan

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明安 Myoan
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:01 pm

Shantideva's work spans teachings on how to reveal uncontrived compassion as well as a chapter on the Perfection of Wisdom at the end that may interest you. If you read the other chapters first, you'll know how to integrate this experience you have so that it brings happiness to yourself and others.
I'm sure others would recommend reading this work as well, especially if you feel caught in a perspective.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by smcj » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:41 pm

Two points I find helpful:

1. Your personality is a changeable configuration of your energies (I.e. your karma). It is not your essence.

2. Wanting to not suffer is an indication of your Buddha Nature being present. (Uttaratantra)

Anyway these points helps me with my thinking.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Wayfarer
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:21 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:54 pm

its just aggeegates arising and passing away and intracting with other conditions and cause and each aggregate is non living thing as they dont have life inherant in them so all living things are just heap of non living things?
Absence of own-being doesn't mean that beings are non-living things - that is a mistaken understanding.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by smcj » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:20 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:21 am

Absence of own-being doesn't mean that beings are non-living things - that is a mistaken understanding.
Exactly so.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

bxcf24
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by bxcf24 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:31 am

If you die in your dream, you're not dead. If you die while awake, you're dead. We exist but change all the time.

confusedlayman
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Re: We dont exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:06 pm

Hey friends, I agree. so when you all radiate metta do you radiate to everyone body or feeling or their consciousness or to collected 5 aggregates at that moment (which are in constant flux) or imagine there is really someone there and to radiate metta to them?

When I do metta, it is the intense feeling that is present during meditation and some hours/min after that and when people spit at me during that metta feeling time, I don't worry much. is this the main aim of metta?

is it the loving feeling we need to keep in body/mind most of the time so even when angry people attack you, the love feeling already present won't allow us to return violence on them?

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Wayfarer
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:16 pm

May I ask if you are really being spat on and violently attacked? Or is that a metaphor?
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

confusedlayman
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:12 am

Hi, it's a metaphor, or analogy. sorry my english bad.

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Wayfarer
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:59 am

Well, that's important. I mean, if you really were in a situation where you're regularly abused and spat on, then maybe changing the situation might be called for.

But anyway, the Buddhist principle is, not to get angry with those who abuse you. It's very similar to the Christian teaching of 'turning the other cheek'. And sure, that is really a difficult thing to do - it's a natural instinct to strike back, and it's very difficult not to feel anger or hatred. My experience is that through meditation and mindfulness, my temper has improved a bit, but still sometimes - like, the other day, someone ran into my car in a parking lot - then I still experience anger and annoyance. It's human nature, but it's better to be able to rise above it, and not let it drag you along. That would be my advice.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Dechen Norbu
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by Dechen Norbu » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:02 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking), i found that we dont exist anywhere in any place both in existance and non existance. It is body that arises and pass, feeling is just feeling etc. The thinking I is ego which is fabricated thought. Based on the Imaginery “I” we suffer. Imagine you working hard to earn money to keep golden unicorn happy? It dont exist. So‘I’ thought is just a thought and by thinking impermanence of all things, arising and passing weay of all things, egolessness of all things ... i can analyse the concept of I dont exist anywhere in world or in non existance. This gives me relief temporarily but I am still not able to overcome my defilements. Annhilist think something exist and suddenly dies but I am thinking nothing exist already and nothing to die only the idea of existance ‘I’ disappears. Can someone help me im stuck and confused and I dont have a monk near me.

Metta,
Confused Layman
Hi!
It's important you get practical about it. Otherwise you may end up lost in concepts and reasoning that seem far apart from your day to day experience.

You may reason, as you did so well, that the "I" is fabricated and ultimately it has no ultimate existence. But then, what about that feeling of self, that which you experience from the moment you wake up till the moment you fall asleep into deep dreamless sleep? That which feels like you. Because you know you aren't me or a dog, a cat or that bird you spoted flying the other day. Right? So what's that?

Prajna, that also stands for intelligence, can only take you so far when realizing emptiness of self and phenomena. So, you already have a rationale helpful to understand that the "I" is a delusion, feelings and emotions are transient and, when looking closely, you can't find anything that's inherently existent.

That works great when you have time to think about such things but, sooner or later, you'll get distracted and BAM!, something intense happens and those rationalizations, that were so helpful when you were mindful, crumble and your emotions take you for a ride.

Suddenly, that "I" you had concluded to be imaginary is experiencing all kinds of things. It's not I who gets a kick when you're having fun. Neither it's me who screams in pain when you bump your toe on a rock. It's you. So, it would seem our rationalizations about the existence/non existence of the "I" make very little difference when it comes to experience, being more relevant in terms of meta-experience .

If you trying to be happy was the same as trying to make an unicorn happy, as you wrote, then you could come to my house, do all the chores, wash my car, take my kid to school, do all my work and so on. Only the unpleasant stuff. I'll keep the good stuff for myself, if you don't mind. Then you also had to do your own stuff. All for free. If you tell me, after a while, "listen, Marcos, this can't go on. I feel miserable!", I would answer back "No you're not! It's just that pesky unicorn that's saying that. Now, put your back in it! Chop, chop!". Somehow I don't see that working, do you?

That apparent contradiction blocks some practitioners. They think "I'm just convincing myself about this rubbish, so that I endure suffering better! Doesn't matter how much I convince myself that the I doesn't exist and feelings are just feelings, emotions are just emotions... that's all nonsense, cuz right now, right now it hurts like hell!"

What to do then?

Is this your case? When you answer, I'll go on.

confusedlayman
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:30 am

Hey all, I think I am getting lost in concept and contradicting myself. let me stop reading text from website and start practicing with aim of personal experience and come back to this forum once any clear insight arises and discuss. I dont know if it takes days or months or years but I am going to try without giving up. I think its waste of time to talk about dhamma with just mere words or normal intellectual thinking. If i think non-self its just a thought, so when I am not thinking about not-self the suffering arises again. Since the thought of non self disappear in instant after arising and some other thoughts follows so when some other thought comes, the previous thought and feeling arising from previous thought vanish. So I am not going to depend on intellectual pondering as it is fabricated and easily destroyed and I cannot think of non self continously (one non self thought followed by next moment thought of non self again and again third thought of non self as it makes brain tired and tight).

Has anyone experience emptiness or non self of everything or any things that dont change without mental fabrication but as natural living experience 24 x7?

bxcf24
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by bxcf24 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:26 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:30 am
Has anyone experience emptiness or non self of everything or any things that dont change without mental fabrication but as natural living experience 24 x7?
Such a being wouldn't want to eat, sleep, eliminate waste, do anything, he'd just die. All things we do are to keep the ego going, keep surviving. We have natural instincet to seek survival. Our changing self understands this, non permanent self.

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