We don't exist anywhere?

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Vasana
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:51 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:30 am
Hey all, I think I am getting lost in concept and contradicting myself. let me stop reading text from website and start practicing with aim of personal experience and come back to this forum once any clear insight arises and discuss. I dont know if it takes days or months or years but I am going to try without giving up. I think its waste of time to talk about dhamma with just mere words or normal intellectual thinking. If i think non-self its just a thought, so when I am not thinking about not-self the suffering arises again. Since the thought of non self disappear in instant after arising and some other thoughts follows so when some other thought comes, the previous thought and feeling arising from previous thought vanish. So I am not going to depend on intellectual pondering as it is fabricated and easily destroyed and I cannot think of non self continously (one non self thought followed by next moment thought of non self again and again third thought of non self as it makes brain tired and tight).

Has anyone experience emptiness or non self of everything or any things that dont change without mental fabrication but as natural living experience 24 x7?
Don't give up study and intellectual analysis too soon. Of course it depends on the Buddhist tradition you are following as to what role study plays, but in many systems, correct meditation can only follow correct understanding.

If your intellectual understanding is faulty or even just incomplete then this can limit the mediations aiming at direct experience. An intellectual understanding can be course or subtle. Obviously a subtle intellectual understanding is still intellectual, but it's still a progression from coarser understandings.

Again, different traditions will emphasise a different balance between study and practice so how you move forward depends on that. Cultivating an intellectual habit can in time soften the mind enough for direct glimpses to occur.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Lazy Lubber
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by Lazy Lubber » Fri May 29, 2020 11:38 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
We don't exist anywhere?
In the Hinayana Suttas, there is the famous sutta about the confused Vacchagotta. The confused Vacchagotta asked a similar question to Lord Buddha as Confusedlayman asked here: "do We don't exist anywhere?". Like the confused Vacchagotta, the question of Confusedlayman is non-sequitur because it includes the belief of "I" or "we".

Since Confusedlayman believes the "we" exists, how can the "we" don't exist, anywhere? :shrug: :roll:
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking), i found that we dont exist anywhere in any place both in existance and non existance. It is body that arises and pass, feeling is just feeling etc. The thinking I is ego which is fabricated thought. Based on the Imaginery “I” we suffer. Imagine you working hard to earn money to keep golden unicorn happy? It dont exist. So‘I’ thought is just a thought and by thinking impermanence of all things, arising and passing weay of all things, egolessness of all things ... i can analyse the concept of I dont exist anywhere in world or in non existance.
The above sounds like the mind is "copying & pasting" theoretical ideas from the internet. It is called "Microsoft Brain".
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
This gives me relief temporarily but I am still not able to overcome my defilements.
Why does the expectation exist to be enlightened? What very special good karma has been done to obtain enlightenment? :shrug:
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
Annhilist think something exist and suddenly dies but I am thinking nothing exist already
The above sounds like more "copy & pasting" from the internet. The brain, like Microsoft, can do copying & pasting. Obviously, "something exists" because defilements exist in the mind. Obviously, the "thinking nothing exist" is false, because the thinking exists and because the defilements accumulated from the three types of misconduct (such as watching pornography) exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
Can someone help me im stuck and confused and I dont have a monk near me.
Yes. No monk can help a mind that has not developed the requisite special virtues of absolute truthfulness, unselfishness & non-self-cherishing. In Mahayana, the focus is on making others happy. In Mahayana, the pāramitā are perfected.
The Prajñapāramitā sūtras (प्रज्ञापारमिता सूत्र), and a large number of other Mahāyāna texts list six perfections:

Dāna pāramitā (दान पारमिता): generosity, giving of oneself (in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese, 布施波羅蜜; in Tibetan, སྦྱིན་པ sbyin-pa)
Śīla pāramitā (शील पारमिता): virtue, morality, discipline, proper conduct (持戒波羅蜜; ཚུལ་ཁྲིམས tshul-khrims)
Kṣānti pāramitā (क्षांति पारमिता): patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance (忍辱波羅蜜; བཟོད་པ bzod-pa)
Vīrya pāramitā (वीर्य पारमिता): energy, diligence, vigor, effort (精進波羅蜜; བརྩོན་འགྲུས brtson-’grus)
Dhyāna pāramitā (ध्यान पारमिता): one-pointed concentration, contemplation (禪定波羅蜜, བསམ་གཏན bsam-gtan)
Prajñā pāramitā (प्रज्ञा पारमिता): wisdom, insight (般若波羅蜜; ཤེས་རབ shes-rab)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ra ... a_Buddhism

confusedlayman
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Sun May 31, 2020 1:36 pm

Lazy Lubber wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:38 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
We don't exist anywhere?
In the Hinayana Suttas, there is the famous sutta about the confused Vacchagotta. The confused Vacchagotta asked a similar question to Lord Buddha as Confusedlayman asked here: "do We don't exist anywhere?". Like the confused Vacchagotta, the question of Confusedlayman is non-sequitur because it includes the belief of "I" or "we".

Since Confusedlayman believes the "we" exists, how can the "we" don't exist, anywhere? :shrug: :roll:
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking), i found that we dont exist anywhere in any place both in existance and non existance. It is body that arises and pass, feeling is just feeling etc. The thinking I is ego which is fabricated thought. Based on the Imaginery “I” we suffer. Imagine you working hard to earn money to keep golden unicorn happy? It dont exist. So‘I’ thought is just a thought and by thinking impermanence of all things, arising and passing weay of all things, egolessness of all things ... i can analyse the concept of I dont exist anywhere in world or in non existance.
The above sounds like the mind is "copying & pasting" theoretical ideas from the internet. It is called "Microsoft Brain".
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
This gives me relief temporarily but I am still not able to overcome my defilements.
Why does the expectation exist to be enlightened? What very special good karma has been done to obtain enlightenment? :shrug:
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
Annhilist think something exist and suddenly dies but I am thinking nothing exist already
The above sounds like more "copy & pasting" from the internet. The brain, like Microsoft, can do copying & pasting. Obviously, "something exists" because defilements exist in the mind. Obviously, the "thinking nothing exist" is false, because the thinking exists and because the defilements accumulated from the three types of misconduct (such as watching pornography) exist.
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
Can someone help me im stuck and confused and I dont have a monk near me.
Yes. No monk can help a mind that has not developed the requisite special virtues of absolute truthfulness, unselfishness & non-self-cherishing. In Mahayana, the focus is on making others happy. In Mahayana, the pāramitā are perfected.
The Prajñapāramitā sūtras (प्रज्ञापारमिता सूत्र), and a large number of other Mahāyāna texts list six perfections:

Dāna pāramitā (दान पारमिता): generosity, giving of oneself (in Chinese, Korean, and Japanese, 布施波羅蜜; in Tibetan, སྦྱིན་པ sbyin-pa)
Śīla pāramitā (शील पारमिता): virtue, morality, discipline, proper conduct (持戒波羅蜜; ཚུལ་ཁྲིམས tshul-khrims)
Kṣānti pāramitā (क्षांति पारमिता): patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance (忍辱波羅蜜; བཟོད་པ bzod-pa)
Vīrya pāramitā (वीर्य पारमिता): energy, diligence, vigor, effort (精進波羅蜜; བརྩོན་འགྲུས brtson-’grus)
Dhyāna pāramitā (ध्यान पारमिता): one-pointed concentration, contemplation (禪定波羅蜜, བསམ་གཏན bsam-gtan)
Prajñā pāramitā (प्रज्ञा पारमिता): wisdom, insight (般若波羅蜜; ཤེས་རབ shes-rab)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ra ... a_Buddhism
Hi, Thanks for the reply. I have identified the mistake and rectified the view. thanks to members on theraveda forum who pointed out the exact sutta for me.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun May 31, 2020 2:07 pm

bxcf24 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:26 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:30 am
Has anyone experience emptiness or non self of everything or any things that dont change without mental fabrication but as natural living experience 24 x7?
Such a being wouldn't want to eat, sleep, eliminate waste, do anything, he'd just die. All things we do are to keep the ego going, keep surviving. We have natural instincet to seek survival. Our changing self understands this, non permanent self.
Actually, with that complete, experiential realization of emptiness, the appearances of the arising and disintegration of phenomena cease, so what we perceive on a relative level as being alive or dying wouldn’t even apply, which is why Buddhas are ‘beyond life and death’.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 pm

The most common challenge to the person trying to understanding Sunyata (“emptiness”) is that he or she is trying to unravel the idea, “that thing doesn’t exist”.

But the premise of sunyata isn’t
“that thing doesn’t exist”
but rather
“Nothing exists which is that thing”.

At first, these two statements appear to say the same thing. But there is big difference.

Sunyata doesn’t argue that phenomena aren’t occurring as perceived, but that phenomena lack intrinsic existence. When deconstructed, we find that nothing truly exists on its own as the basis for the perceived phenomena.
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SteRo
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 4:17 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 pm
...
but rather
“Nothing exists which is that thing”.
How come the affirmation of "that thing" through mere reference?

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sun May 31, 2020 4:33 pm

SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 pm
...
but rather
“Nothing exists which is that thing”.
How come the affirmation of "that thing" through mere reference?
“That thing” is still an arising appearance that occurs.
That’s why there’s attachment. That’s why there’s suffering as a result of attachment.
The context is illusion, isn’t it?
Profile Picture: "The Fo Ming (Buddha Bright) Monk"
People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.

SteRo
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by SteRo » Sun May 31, 2020 5:19 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:33 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 pm
...
but rather
“Nothing exists which is that thing”.
How come the affirmation of "that thing" through mere reference?
“That thing” is still an arising appearance that occurs.
That’s why there’s attachment. That’s why there’s suffering as a result of attachment.
The context is illusion, isn’t it?
Even though it's about absence of fabrications conceit intends to grasp that absence through fabrications.

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LastLegend
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 5:24 pm

Conceit and stubborn is not any difference. Non-differentiating Wisdom of emptiness of we don’t exist everywhere.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 5:43 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:33 pm
SteRo wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:17 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 2:16 pm
...
but rather
“Nothing exists which is that thing”.
How come the affirmation of "that thing" through mere reference?
“That thing” is still an arising appearance that occurs.
That’s why there’s attachment. That’s why there’s suffering as a result of attachment.
The context is illusion, isn’t it?
I get the insight of you and Astus. That’s actually a much deeper insight. The insight of willing to die for sentient beings because no self.

Each individual is so different on this forum, that we can pull each other in each other’s karma at where we are stuck. That’s also key here. It’s very possible that we are holding someone’s views via karma of interacting and exchanging.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 6:44 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:49 am
After analysing with strong thinking (non meditative, normal casual thinking), i found that we dont exist anywhere in any place both in existance and non existance. It is body that arises and pass, feeling is just feeling etc. The thinking I is ego which is fabricated thought. Based on the Imaginery “I” we suffer. Imagine you working hard to earn money to keep golden unicorn happy? It dont exist. So‘I’ thought is just a thought and by thinking impermanence of all things, arising and passing weay of all things, egolessness of all things ... i can analyse the concept of I dont exist anywhere in world or in non existance. This gives me relief temporarily but I am still not able to overcome my defilements. Annhilist think something exist and suddenly dies but I am thinking nothing exist already and nothing to die only the idea of existance ‘I’ disappears. Can someone help me im stuck and confused and I dont have a monk near me.

Metta,
Confused Layman
‘I’ is a set of conditions being the skandhas but there is another layer of functioning that is never deluded in the first place. It is also empty like a clear mirror (being bright and clear, non-deluded). That’s your Wisdom. You have a job for yourself to find that out.

If we make it to be anything, that’s skandhas playing trick.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

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LastLegend
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by LastLegend » Sun May 31, 2020 6:59 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:51 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:30 am
Hey all, I think I am getting lost in concept and contradicting myself. let me stop reading text from website and start practicing with aim of personal experience and come back to this forum once any clear insight arises and discuss. I dont know if it takes days or months or years but I am going to try without giving up. I think its waste of time to talk about dhamma with just mere words or normal intellectual thinking. If i think non-self its just a thought, so when I am not thinking about not-self the suffering arises again. Since the thought of non self disappear in instant after arising and some other thoughts follows so when some other thought comes, the previous thought and feeling arising from previous thought vanish. So I am not going to depend on intellectual pondering as it is fabricated and easily destroyed and I cannot think of non self continously (one non self thought followed by next moment thought of non self again and again third thought of non self as it makes brain tired and tight).

Has anyone experience emptiness or non self of everything or any things that dont change without mental fabrication but as natural living experience 24 x7?
Don't give up study and intellectual analysis too soon. Of course it depends on the Buddhist tradition you are following as to what role study plays, but in many systems, correct meditation can only follow correct understanding.

If your intellectual understanding is faulty or even just incomplete then this can limit the mediations aiming at direct experience. An intellectual understanding can be course or subtle. Obviously a subtle intellectual understanding is still intellectual, but it's still a progression from coarser understandings.

Again, different traditions will emphasise a different balance between study and practice so how you move forward depends on that. Cultivating an intellectual habit can in time soften the mind enough for direct glimpses to occur.
Yes subtle that’s traces of karma. Once that’s transcended it, and return to life, it will manifest again just that enlightened beings they don’t distinguish that to be their or others. Unless completely extinguished, that would be severing seeds with sentient beings and a different path.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

SteRo
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by SteRo » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:41 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:43 pm
That’s actually a much deeper insight. The insight of willing to die for sentient beings because no self.
Is this your Mahayana thought? Seems to be a mixture of longing for not-being and attachment to being based on the conceit 'I am'. Nobody is liberated when you die no matter what you conceive of 'dying for'.
"because no self" you are not even born, so where does the idea "willing to die for sentient beings because no self" come from?

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LastLegend
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by LastLegend » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:09 pm

SteRo wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:41 am
LastLegend wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:43 pm
That’s actually a much deeper insight. The insight of willing to die for sentient beings because no self.
Is this your Mahayana thought? Seems to be a mixture of longing for not-being and attachment to being based on the conceit 'I am'. Nobody is liberated when you die no matter what you conceive of 'dying for'.
"because no self" you are not even born, so where does the idea "willing to die for sentient beings because no self" come from?
:lol:
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

confusedlayman
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Re: We don't exist anywhere?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:34 pm

Thanks for all answers. I actually found the answer to this question in past few months and this question now look funny to me. If possible lock this thread or discuss among ourself if there is any more query..

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