Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

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kalden yungdrung
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Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:48 am

Tashi delek DW members,

Bardo of dying is very well connected to some Dzogchen experiences which are seen here as secret.
The more we practice here and now the more recognition is there in the Bardo States.
But not every Buddhist Tradition on this world is informed for some reasons upon the Anatara Bhava existence.

Well i have a girl friend who is Theravada Buddhist and her daddy (Theravada Buddhist) is right on in the process of dying (liver cancer).


- What can we do as a Dzogchenpa for a Theravada Buddhist who is in the Bardo of dying, on distance?


Thanks.


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heart
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by heart » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:28 pm

Just be there and be a good friend. No need to try to change people, dying is difficult enough as it is I imagine.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:54 pm

heart wrote:Just be there and be a good friend. No need to try to change people, dying is difficult enough as it is I imagine.

/magnus

Tashi delek M,

Thanks for your advice.

Well i don't like/need to change people from Theravada, except if they like to change / develop etc.

But here the point is compassion based on action /Wisdom. This is not converting a dying person.
Then the person is living in Thailand, cannot be there at the moment (12 hours flight).
So there are methods but i don't know if they fit with the conviction of that person.

For instance i cannot do the Pure Realm of the West or East rituals etc., if the person has no understanding of this all, and that is here my problem.........


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MiphamFan
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:03 pm

Place a tagdrol on him or let him have some liberation by taste substance.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by pael » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:08 pm

What is tagdol? What is liberation by taste substance?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:26 pm

Tagdrol is liberation by touch. They are diagrams with mantras on them that plant a cause for liberation in beimgs which touch it. Liberation by touch is the same thing but by taste.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by fckw » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:51 pm

I don't really see the problem here. Why not simply ask that girl friend of yours? If she's the daughter she'll probably have at least a general idea about what her father's wishes would be. If he never made them clear but was a convinced Therevada practitioner with also respect for other traditions, then do whatever your tradition recommends. If he was known of having a dislike for other traditions though, but still was an active practitioner of Therevada, then simply ask a Therevada teacher about what to do. Or if you know what is generally done either in Thailand or in Therevada for a dying person, then do exactly this. Or if none of this is applicable for any reason, then simply practice loving kindness (metta-) meditation for the person. And if the person was a convinced atheist who refused every sort of religious practice, then in the spirit of respect towards the person just practice for yourself and your girl friend.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kashmir » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:43 pm

There are many many things you can do, If you have transmission for Shitro, that is very good to do, you can follow the instructions etc. Also maybe you say OM A HUM, it is the most essential mantra and contains all mantras, it can have a good cause.
Also of course there are so many substances for wearing, hearing, tasting, seeing, which are all very good.
You can even commission a monastery to do many Shitro practices in dedication for your loved one.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by DNS » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:19 am

Most Theravada Buddhists reject the notion of bardo and believe rebirth to be immediate. Some Theravadins, however, including me, are open to it.

There are a few other Suttas which suggest that there could be this intermediate state. One of the strongest indications of this is in the Metta Sutta which speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be."

In between state

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:45 am

Tashi delek to all,

Many thanks for your replies.

Yes it is difficult sometimes , to decide what to do in case of helping others.

Compassion without Wisdom does not work.

So i did decide to do the following after a long time of considerations.

I told my girl friend:

- Take him asap out of the money hospital
- The daughter from my girlfriend has to come and take care about daddy, she is a professional nurse
- To place a Buddha image and Stupa in front of the bed of daddy.
- Place the bed in the daytime so that daddy can see the blue skies
- My girlfriend reads the favourite Sutra from Daddy
- The visitors are not allowed to speak in the house about who gets what etc. which can disturb the mind
- An angry mind etc. will cause lower rebirth
- Then at the moment of disconnection the top of the head should be touched
- The body has to be put vertical position or lying on the right side, the Paranirvana posture
- Nobody must touch the body for (the minimum) 3 days

- In those 3 days something can be done
Well i guess i will sent a photo from daddy to some professionals (to the Menri Abbot) and ask for some rituals , that is the best way to help, i guess so.
In the meanwhile i can sent my visualisations to the actual still living body, body, which can help also.

Questions :
- Has Shakyamuni Buddha a pure Realm somewhere maybe?
- What promises did the Buddha Shakyamuni Buddha made (before he became a Buddha) for his followers? (12 vows)

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tingdzin
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by tingdzin » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:16 am

In my opinion, all the ideas you sent your GF were excellent, except touching the head at the moment of death (usually a big no-no in Thailand, and might confuse the dying man). Putting the corpse upright or on its side might also cause the deceased confusion. As far as leaving the body undisturbed for three days, it seems that most rural Thais do that anyway, unless a monk says not to for some reason. The Thais (at least those who follow tradition) still have a lot of common sense about these things that we in the West have almost lost (although I have seen people disputing about possessions in a corpse's presence, which is terrible).

Sending a photo to Menri is excellent also.

P.S. The Buddha image and stupa should be at bedside or at its head, never at the foot of the bed, but your GF will know this.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:26 am

tingdzin wrote:In my opinion, all the ideas you sent your GF were excellent, except touching the head at the moment of death (usually a big no-no in Thailand, and might confuse the dying man). Putting the corpse upright or on its side might also cause the deceased confusion. As far as leaving the body undisturbed for three days, it seems that most rural Thais do that anyway, unless a monk says not to for some reason. The Thais (at least those who follow tradition) still have a lot of common sense about these things that we in the West have almost lost (although I have seen people disputing about possessions in a corpse's presence, which is terrible).

Sending a photo to Menri is excellent also.

P.S. The Buddha image and stupa should be at bedside or at its head, never at the foot of the bed, but your GF will know this.

Tashi delek T,

Thanks for your reply.

Yesterday i did sent to our H.H. the Menri Abbot, via his office, a photo from the dying person.

The Secretary at the office promised to do the needed rituals for the dying Thai person.
Did give the name for calling , birthday and place (photo) where his bedroom is.

Then i did sent a donation for the ritual.

That of the Buddha Statue at the top of the bed, that i did not know.
Thought that seeing a Buddha causes a positive state of Mind.I know that the feet should not point to the Buddha etc. , but maybe it has another reason to place the Buddha image above the head of the dying person.

Sure i agree not touching the head is here not so ok. because these S.E. Asiatic people don't like that one touches their head.....
Also lying can be confusing, i agree.
To sit up that would be confusing for a Thai and also lying on the right side maybe........

Yes we have to do it all as much as possible according the Thai customs.


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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by Kaccāni » Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:07 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote: Well i don't like/need to change people from Theravada, except if they like to change / develop etc.
How about using the situation to turn your feelings of superiority towards Theravadist into ones of real compassion?
Maybe just be present ...

Best wishes
Kc
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:05 pm

Kaccāni wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote: Well i don't like/need to change people from Theravada, except if they like to change / develop etc.
How about using the situation to turn your feelings of superiority towards Theravadist into ones of real compassion?
Maybe just be present ...

Best wishes
Kc

Tashi delek K,

Well i am NOT aware that i am superior to Theravada Buddhists, otherwise i would call them Hinayana adherents. :smile:

Real Compassion is only possible with an equal part of Wisdom.
The Wisdom factor i did fill in , in this case the Menri Monks in Dolanji who also have many Compassion.
Together we can fix the job (with Compassion and Wisdom) and that is needed, so we are present and ready now.

All in all a very strange reply from you, which does not serve at all any good means for help.

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:15 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Most Theravada Buddhists reject the notion of bardo and believe rebirth to be immediate. Some Theravadins, however, including me, are open to it.

There are a few other Suttas which suggest that there could be this intermediate state. One of the strongest indications of this is in the Metta Sutta which speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be."

In between state

Tashi delek D,

Thanks for your reply.

You put it simple here that Theravada Buddhist reject the notion of a Bardo.
Indeed then an immediate rebirth is the only solution.

But according the Bardo are those who fall in deep unconsciousness states of Mind, those who did not practice etc.
Well that we never can say about a Theravada Buddhist.

I see that some Theravadins , like you, are open for the fact that there is a Bardo and that is a good case.


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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:00 pm

Tashi delek DW members,


Daddy, the father of my girl friend, a noble Thai Theravada Buddhist, is going to the end of this life.
He is sometimes unconsciousness.

We did help him as much as possible from all sides without disturbing him etc.
May he obtain a good reincarnation within a Buddhist Tradition and continue on the great Buddha Dhamma Path to Enlightenment.

Many thanks for the Ven.Menri Monks, who accomplish a job with Compassion and Wisdom.
They do the Bardo prayers and other needed rituals. :applause:
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In the world of Buddhism helping Buddhists is a good case, of course without discriminating, that would spoil the whole job of course.

OM MA TRI MU YE SA LE DU / OM MA NI PE ME HUNG


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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:01 pm

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:01 pm

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:05 pm

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OM MA TRI MU YE SA LE DU / OM MA NI PE ME HUNG :bow:
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Bardo for Theravada Buddhists

Post by Losal Samten » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:13 pm

:twothumbsup:
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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