Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
tkp67
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:48 pm

jake wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:40 pm
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:55 pm
I think it is fair to say the defiled mine senses liberation even if it does not understand it.
Which sense organs and with what sense consciousness does the mind sense liberation?
The same as every self awakened buddha, the first sapient to realize liberation, and shakyamuni. I do not doubt there are other examples.
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:55 pm
This might lead to reasoning that the amount of bodhicitta one uncovers and the bodhicitta one needs to uncover it are relative to cause, karma, conditions and capacity.
Reasoning is one thing, what writings on Bodhicitta support this reasoning? Further what is meant by "Bodhicitta one needs to uncover" is it something that can be quantified?
[/quote]

The Lotus Sutra because it speaks of self liberation as a limitation to supreme perfect enlightenment. If there is self liberation there is self motivation.

monkishlife
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by monkishlife » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:21 pm

When you understanding emptiness correctly -- and, yes, many people do not -- it does make you more compassionate. Although many of us have free will to a fair degree (I can't numerize it), we are still strongly impacted by causes and conditions. Dependent origination makes us realize that we are not completely responsible for many things in our lives: our diseases, our personalities, our delusions, where we're born, who are parents are, etc. We have past karmic histories - very heavy ones, in fact. So Emptiness brings us more compassion for others as we come to the realization that we are indeed not as in charge of our lives as we may think, especially those we are blinded by ignorance (most people). Modern-day America has sold us the notion we are sole directors of our lives. We all have choices and therefore can do anything we want. They want us to believe that we have inherently existing selves, who exist independently frozen in time. That is false, false and more false. My friends, emptiness is ultimate reality. :twothumbsup:

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:57 pm

Lokottara wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:33 am
I frequently think about the sections of the Vimalakīrti Nirdeśa that beautifully connect the knowledge of emptiness with compassion, and a direct cause for bodhicitta. Have any of you found that contemplating on the emptiness of sentient beings makes you more compassionate?
It can be meditating on emptiness if done correctly will lead to enlightenment.

It can be meditating on compassion will lead to enlightenment.

It can be meditating on both compassion and emptiness will lead to enlightenment.

But you would need to know clearly what emptiness/empty nature is to prevent skandhas from constructing a state that mirrors enlightenment. Actually when you know what empty nature is, you can use hearing, seeing, or other faculties to mediate. There is no limit really.

Compassion has to be trained if you have a lot of negative thoughts like me. 😄
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:23 pm

Well, What does meditating on emptiness really mean? Emptiness means all phenomena are empty of an intrinsic self.

This means that ultimately there is no me and ultimately there are no others. This is mentioned in the Diamond Sutra. So, what does compassion mean?

If we are talking about compassion as a subject and object interaction, “I am me and sentient beings are others and I am generating compassion toward others” then of course this cannot arise from an understanding of emptiness. It contradicts the very premise of emptiness, because in emptiness, ultimately nothing arises that can be identified as a self, and nothing arises which can be identified ultimately as others.

So, a different meaning of “compassion” has to be established in this context. It has to reflect a kind of wish for the benefitting of others but in a way that does not involve engaging in duality.

I think that the way this is accomplished is in realization that our perceptions are essentially a dream like experience and so we are playing characters in a sense, and within the context we see that the role of compassion has a function and that it also can emerge as an expression of no self.

In this way, generating compassion becomes a means from waking up from this dream like state. When we meditate on emptiness, one realizes the inseparability of oneself and all other beings. This cuts through the duality of self and other, and this results in a state of selfless compassion. Selfless compassion means there is no “me” being compassionate to “you”. There is simply the arising non-duality.

It actually might be easier to understand if approached through the subtractive way of looking at it:
in other words, everything which is not compassion is removed through the practice of meditation on emptiness, and the only thing which remains is compassion, and it too is non-dual.
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Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Simon E.
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by Simon E. » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:15 pm

A very interesting take... :thumbsup:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:27 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:23 pm
It actually might be easier to understand if approached through the subtractive way of looking at it:
in other words, everything which is not compassion is removed through the practice of meditation on emptiness, and the only thing which remains is compassion, and it too is non-dual.
.
.
.
Thoughts should be very light and soft and very clear.

Correct!
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muni
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by muni » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:42 am

Great inspirations.

Compassion is the *light* of emptiness. Others are nothing other but *the light of selflesness*

:meditate:
The nature of just what is, in all things, is undifferentiated.
When purified, it is the nature of the tathagata.
Therefore all living beings possess that nucleus.

The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 am

Light as in not heavy.
Make personal vows.

madhusudan
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by madhusudan » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:51 pm

Since I came upon this stanza today, I thought to share it here:

One whose view of emptiness is devoid of compassion
does not reach the supreme path.
Even if you cultivate compassion alone,
you will remain here in samsara, but where is liberation?
One who has both
does not remain either in mundane existence or in nirvana.
-Saraha

SteRo
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:13 pm

madhusudan wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:51 pm
Since I came upon this stanza today, I thought to share it here:

One whose view of emptiness is devoid of compassion
does not reach the supreme path.
Anyone who has a view of emptiness is incurable (MMK XIII.8). Compassion won't remedy.

muni
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by muni » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:08 am

Agree, a view is clinging. I am sure Saraha does not teach clinging.

"The view" here ( wisdom-compassion) is not a viewer viewing a view. No any separation. While it is awaken aspect compassion what helps dreaming us/suffering ones.

_/\_ *Buddha*

Compassion then ( emptiness) is not a compassionate one acting compassionately for one(s) or for objects of compassion.

Also saying one who has, one who is and so on, can give the expression of an independence, a solid person/atman and his-her solid path towards solid right understanding. But these mere words are just for explanation, clarifying what can only be obvious as meditation.
The nature of just what is, in all things, is undifferentiated.
When purified, it is the nature of the tathagata.
Therefore all living beings possess that nucleus.

The fortress of the spacious and timeless expanse has no division into
higher or lower or in between.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:22 am

COMPASSION IS LIKE PEEING IN A DREAM.

Sometimes when people are asleep, they dream that they have to find a place to pee, and this makes them wake up, then they wake up and realize that in fact, they need to pee.

Generating compassion is like this. Yes, this samsaric existence is like a dream. Even when you practice meditation, even meditation on emptiness, it’s still happening in this dream. But compassion is like the bridge, with one end in samsara and the other in nirvana, so to speak.

Likewise, meditation on emptiness establishes the foundation on which this bridge rests.


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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:26 am

Compassion is the recognition that sentient beings and Buddhas are not different, compassion is dual in non-dual with the absence of confusion.
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amanitamusc
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:00 am

LastLegend wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 am
Light as in not heavy.
Its not heavy its my Brother. :tongue:

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:13 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:00 am
LastLegend wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 am
Light as in not heavy.
Its not heavy its my Brother. :tongue:
👍
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:48 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:00 am
LastLegend wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:09 am
Light as in not heavy.
Its not heavy its my Brother. :tongue:
It’s the reaction that’s heavy-habit.
Make personal vows.

SteRo
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:57 am

"Compassion" is a misunderstanding. The intention behind teaching it is certainly good. But good intentions not always entail beneficial effects.

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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 am

SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:57 am
"Compassion" is a misunderstanding. The intention behind teaching it is certainly good. But good intentions not always entail beneficial effects.
Example?
Make personal vows.

SteRo
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:29 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 am
SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:57 am
"Compassion" is a misunderstanding. The intention behind teaching it is certainly good. But good intentions not always entail beneficial effects.
Example?
Obsession with "beings" which fosters the conceit "I am".

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LastLegend
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Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:32 am

SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:29 am
LastLegend wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:21 am
SteRo wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:57 am
"Compassion" is a misunderstanding. The intention behind teaching it is certainly good. But good intentions not always entail beneficial effects.
Example?
Obsession with "beings" which fosters the conceit "I am".
Yes.

How do you propose managing appearance of self?
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