Basic question on meditation

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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garudha
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Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:52 am

I have a tooth problem. I become aware of the pain which is usually unnoticeable. I don't pay attention to the pain and it seems my tooth is going further and further away from me... it's like I'm going into the centre of my brain and distance becomes very large... it's like my tooth is miles away and can't be felt.

I'm not aware of my body but feel able to sense everything all around me with my mind. Feels fresh & clean. Light as a feather.

Is there a name for this stage?

Am I in Samatha or already in Jhana ?

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Wayfarer
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:51 am

I could be wrong, but I have the impression that when one enters higher states, one of the first things to go is the awareness that one is in a special state. In other words, as long as the mind is self-conscious in the sense of judging what state it is in, is still basically grasping after states and experiences.

(That said, I recall one of the very first spiritual books I ever read, in about 1972, called 'Relief Without Drugs', by an Australian psychiatrist called Ainslie Meares, in which he recounted having dental work done without anaesthetics, relying only on his ability to transcend pain through meditation. There's a Wikipedie entry on him.)
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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LastLegend
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by LastLegend » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:07 am

I don't have it.
Very very clear superbly miraculously clear lol.

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KathyLauren
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:10 pm

garudha wrote:I have a tooth problem. I become aware of the pain which is usually unnoticeable. I don't pay attention to the pain and it seems my tooth is going further and further away from me... it's like I'm going into the centre of my brain and distance becomes very large... it's like my tooth is miles away and can't be felt.

I'm not aware of my body but feel able to sense everything all around me with my mind. Feels fresh & clean. Light as a feather.

Is there a name for this stage?

Am I in Samatha or already in Jhana ?
It sounds like the stage called, "I am trying to ignore my toothache." :)

Om mani padme hum
Keith

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Kaccāni
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:46 pm

Dissociation?

Sounds rather hypnotic to me.
Is there doubt?
Does it deal with defilements?
Is there one-pointedness?
Is there thought?
Who sees the ache and how is distance measured?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Osho
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Osho » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:32 pm

"Am I in Samatha or already in Jhana ?"
Not sure but you'd maybe be better off in the dentist's chair.
More about Mindfulness here
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
(Dogen).

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Kaccāni
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:52 pm

@Osho: You´re so ... practical.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:35 am

Not just being obnoxious, but it sounds like the stage you are in is the one where you could use a teacher,
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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garudha
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:00 am

Gwenn Dana wrote:Dissociation?

Sounds rather hypnotic to me.
Is there doubt? No, I don't really exist to be able to doubt.
Does it deal with defilements? I address them in the first moments and then let then rest.
Is there one-pointedness? I don't know.
Is there thought? No, just big glowing that merges with everthing.
Who sees the ache and how is distance measured? I see the ache. I'm aware of it. I really don't know how it's measured but I dissapear into a central void that goes very far into the centre... Weird, I know.

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kirtu
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by kirtu » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:25 am

garudha wrote:I have a tooth problem. I become aware of the pain which is usually unnoticeable. I don't pay attention to the pain and it seems my tooth is going further and further away from me... it's like I'm going into the centre of my brain and distance becomes very large... it's like my tooth is miles away and can't be felt.

I'm not aware of my body but feel able to sense everything all around me with my mind. Feels fresh & clean. Light as a feather.

Is there a name for this stage?

Am I in Samatha or already in Jhana ?
As you know the jhanas are not really taught in Mahayana. However the characteristic feature of jhana is the pervading feelings of bliss (sukkha, rapture, etc.) accompanying samadhi. So it sounds like jhana.

Samatha is just calming the mind and deepening ones focus. It can also result in the experience of tooth pain as far away, etc. but you have specifically mentioned feelings of bliss which do not arise for many (perhaps most) people in samatha.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Kaccāni
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:01 pm

garudha wrote:I see the ache. ...a central void that goes very far into the centre...
There´s your thought concept that is being visualized.
I would consider it a self-hypnotic state.
However apparently one, where you don´t experience defilements.
So there could be one-pointedness, or at least moments of that.

Let whatever is around this void come back and see what happens.
It cannot touch you when that void is not a concept of void, even if it is ultimately close, can it?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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garudha
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:27 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:
garudha wrote:I see the ache. ...a central void that goes very far into the centre...
There´s your thought concept that is being visualized.
I would consider it a self-hypnotic state.
However apparently one, where you don´t experience defilements.
So there could be one-pointedness, or at least moments of that.

Let whatever is around this void come back and see what happens.
It cannot touch you when that void is not a concept of void, even if it is ultimately close, can it?
Hmmm, I think I am the void, more than the void is something else. If I concentrated on stuff outside the void then I'd be pulled out of the super-awareness and would just be normally aware. Then again, another time, I was in a busy waiting room, there were some people I didn't know around me, so I thought "could be waiting awhile" then closed my eyes and meditated... I didn't become aware of my tooth but went straight into "big-merge" and the void wasn't so pronounced. I found that I could be subtly aware of everything around me but if I let my attention become fixated on anything in particular then I would "de-merge" and my brain would start chattering (or rather the chatter would cause "de-merge"). It's nice to know that I can mediate in any environment and be calm but sometimes there isn't time in life to close one's eyes and relax ...so I hope to be able to merge on a single breath. This is my goal.

edit: What's that joke?.. goes like "make me one with everything" ?

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Kaccāni
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:59 pm

garudha wrote: Hmmm, I think I am the void, more than the void is something else.
Give up the concept of being the void.
then I'd be pulled out of the super-awareness
Give up the concept of super-awareness.
but went straight into "big-merge" and the void wasn't so pronounced.
Give up the concept of big-merge too.
so I hope to be able to merge on a single breath.
Stop trying to merge and stop trying.

Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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garudha
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:25 pm

Gwenn Dana wrote:
Give up the concept of being the void.

Give up the concept of super-awareness.

Give up the concept of big-merge too.

Stop trying to merge and stop trying.

Best wishes
Gwenn
Why? Why would anyone do that, GwennDana, for what purpose or utility ?

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Kaccāni
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:28 pm

Afterwards give up giving up. Just let it come.

As long as you´re making concepts out of what you observe, there is not emptiness.
Asking why will also create concepts. Either you drop through that, or you don´t.
What could you lose?

Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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garudha
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:37 pm

We have to make up concepts to even talk about it. Are you qualified to be giving this advice... tell me this, miss uber-guru, did you die already ?

(I know what you will say, darn it, you should evade the question and give a "enlightened" answer... you're so predictable. Everyone knows you here Gwenn, tell us something we don't know... like how you feel)

Do you feel perfect? :coffee:

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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:44 pm

You asked, I wrote an answer.
There was not more to it.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:01 pm

"garudha" you are unwilling to make the effort to go find yourself a real teacher (even though you live somewhere where there is a plethora of able and qualified teachers) and yet you are willing to stop and take advice from a complete stranger on an internet forum, a stranger that has admitted many times that they are not even a Buddhist. It is not Gwenn's fault so you can stop lashing out at them, it is 100% your fault.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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oushi
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by oushi » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:12 pm

garudha wrote:We have to make up concepts to even talk about it. Are you qualified to be giving this advice... tell me this, miss uber-guru, did you die already ?

(I know what you will say, darn it, you should evade the question and give a "enlightened" answer... you're so predictable. Everyone knows you here Gwenn, tell us something we don't know... like how you feel)

Do you feel perfect? :coffee:
And now everyone knows you garudha... Tell me, what virtue do you find in despising others?
Say what you think about me here.

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garudha
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Re: Basic question on meditation

Post by garudha » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:12 pm

I just wanted to ask the question in the OP and I'm happy to elaborate if it helps us to find meaning.

Instructing each other on how to meditate is another matter. I asked why should I follow this Instruction and you went further off topic, relaying further mystical instructions, and eventually told me there was nothing behind it, GwennDana. I find this behaviour rather strange.

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