Emptiness and Depending Origination

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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Shadok
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Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Shadok » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:29 pm

I have been doing breathing meditation for a while. Now I would like to also learn other forms of meditations. I have little understanding about Emptiness and Depending Arising. I searched on this forum for more info., but no luck. Does anyone know where can I find more info. on how to meditate on these two? I am practicing on my own and don't belong to any dharma center.

Thanks,
Shadok

odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:45 pm

There´s not any special meditation methods for Emptiness or Dependent Origination. It´s something to be understood intellectually and realised, then you also see it in meditation automatically.

Here´s an article about Emptiness: http://www.buddhanet.net/cbp2_f6.htm
Here´s an article about Dependent Origination: http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh015.pdf

Punya
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Punya » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:16 pm

There's a range of meditations set out in Kathleen McDonald's book How to Meditate including one on emptiness. Geshe Sonam Rinchen's book How Karma Works provides an easy to understand and practical introduction to the twelve links of dependent arising.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:04 pm

odysseus wrote:There´s not any special meditation methods for Emptiness or Dependent Origination
Complete nonsense. Of course there are specific meditation techniques to realise Sunyata and Pratītyasamutpāda. Don't speak so authoritatively to newcomers, when you actually don't have a clue. It is one thing to be ignorant, and another thing to spread ignorance.

The techniques are based on insight and analytical meditations. You can find the techniques outlined in Sutta teachings here if you do a site search on the term "sunnata". Apart from that? Well, you really have to find a teacher to progress any further.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:04 pm

Punya wrote:There's a range of meditations set out in Kathleen McDonald's book How to Meditate including one on emptiness.
What I tried to say is that there´s no particular "emptiness meditation", but of course you can contemplate. "emptiness" is not a meditation object, neither for jhana or vipasanna.

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Ayu
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Ayu » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:07 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote: Apart from that? Well, you really have to find a teacher to progress any further.
I second that! :meditate:
But a good teacher.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:08 pm

odysseus wrote:What I tried to say is that there´s no particular "emptiness meditation", but of course you can contemplate. "emptiness" is not a meditation object, neither for jhana or vipasanna.
Hogwash again. Read this and this for starters.

One of my teachers (Lama Lhundrup/Tilmann) once gave us about 10 different techniques specifically for meditating on emptiness.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Paul
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Paul » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:29 pm

Shadok wrote:I have been doing breathing meditation for a while. Now I would like to also learn other forms of meditations. I have little understanding about Emptiness and Depending Arising. I searched on this forum for more info., but no luck. Does anyone know where can I find more info. on how to meditate on these two? I am practicing on my own and don't belong to any dharma center.

Thanks,
Shadok
http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Medit ... 549&sr=1-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Lotus_Bitch » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:44 pm

Paul wrote:
Shadok wrote:I have been doing breathing meditation for a while. Now I would like to also learn other forms of meditations. I have little understanding about Emptiness and Depending Arising. I searched on this forum for more info., but no luck. Does anyone know where can I find more info. on how to meditate on these two? I am practicing on my own and don't belong to any dharma center.

Thanks,
Shadok
http://www.amazon.com/Progressive-Medit ... 549&sr=1-2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Many meditators know how to meditate,
But only a few know how to dismantle [mental clinging].
- Je Gyare

odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus » Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:42 pm

Without getting into technical terminology, I´m saying that not everything is "a meditation". Now suddenly all of Buddhism is called meditation, just like that? You want to look like a neo-yogi-therapist or a decent human being?

Well, that´s my personal view. Not everything and all discourses and every little thought and teaching is the same as meditation. ;)

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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:24 am

odysseus wrote:Without getting into technical terminology, I´m saying that not everything is "a meditation". Now suddenly all of Buddhism is called meditation, just like that? You want to look like a neo-yogi-therapist or a decent human being?

Well, that´s my personal view. Not everything and all discourses and every little thought and teaching is the same as meditation. ;)
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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:30 am

It doesn´t seem like I´m the only one who´s brimming over here. :-)

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LastLegend
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by LastLegend » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:22 am

It can be practiced, e.i., via contemplating dependent origination. There was a tradition (either Zen or something) exclusively devoted to this type of contemplation/meditation in China, but it went extinct. Nowadays, Mahayana monks advise Buddhists to contemplate on their physical body as non-pure, reception (of emotions due to attachment, i.e.,) as suffering, and all dharmas/phenomena as non-self.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:41 am

odysseus wrote:It doesn´t seem like I´m the only one who´s brimming over here. :-)
Congratulations, you have just managed to make my "foes" list. In effect, I will no longer be witness to your misinformation, which is fine because even when informed to the contrary (with evidence) you don't listen anyway, so actually it's not worth responding to you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

odysseus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by odysseus » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:55 am

I didn´t know there´s a foe list. Sad to feel your strictness and to see you go... But I´ll tell you one little thing, Mr. Policeman: Sh*t 'appens (King Willie in Predator 2). :oops:

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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Dan74 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:32 am

I think people can be forgiven for thinking there's no meditation specifically to do with emptiness and dependent origination because they are rarely labelled as such. However, pretty much all Buddhist meditation is aimed at realising emptiness and dependent origination of all phenomena, including the self and its processes.

So even if we do breath meditation, watching the breath arise and fall, we might recognise that we are actually watching an idea rather than actual experience of the breath rising and falling; once we become aware of the actual experience, we might recognise that the experience itself is a mental phenomenon that changes rather than stay constant, similarly with the pain in the knees, feeling of boredom, restlessness, etc. This then translates into a recognition that other events are also mental phenomena - that the world is mind-made, that everything happening depends on lots of other things happening and ultimately on the mind that perceived it in certain way, which also depends on lots of things. After that, you might turn your attention to this mind which sometimes appears as an observer, an experiencer, and see what it's made of.

In Rinzai Zen there are specific koans that deal with aspects of emptiness and that's best discussed with a Rinzai teacher. We have Meido Roshi who posts sometimes. Maybe he will chance upon this thread but you probably have a better chance if you post in the Zen subforum (or at ZFI which is not super-active but has an Ask-a-Teacher forum).

All the Best!!!

_/|\_
Dan

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Shadok
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Shadok » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:20 pm

Thanks for help, everyone. I need to check out those books.

rainbow_light
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by rainbow_light » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:35 pm

Hi Shadok,

I highly recommend this one. Too many great qualities to mention here. Clearly written and accessible, yet goes very deep:

Rob Burbea - Seeing That Frees: Meditations on Emptiness and Dependent Origination

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Astus
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by Astus » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:02 am

There are clear and perfectly followable meditation instructions.

First of all, meditation on breathing is a fundamental one, and it is more than just watching it. It includes the whole path from ordinary being to enlightenment.

For the basics, look at the various instructions on "anapanasati", as it is presented in the suttas and the Theravada school. Lot of teachings. Vipassana in general is also about realising no self.

If you want the Mahayana version, one of the best is Zhiyi's Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime. But maybe it is a bit difficult because of the language used. So, as previously posted, there are quite a few books out there by modern authors giving you all the details. Some of those not yet mentioned:

Gen Lamrimpa: How To Realize Emptiness
The Dalai Lama: Stages of Meditation

Thrangu Rinpoche:
- Teachings on the Practice of Meditation
- Essentials of Mahamudra: Looking Directly at the Mind
- Essential Practice: Lectures on Kamalashila's Stages of Meditation in the Middle Way School
- The Middle-way Meditation Instructions: Developing Compassion Through Wisdom : Based on Mipham Rinpoche's Gateway to Knowledge
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

joy&peace
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Re: Emptiness and Depending Origination

Post by joy&peace » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:24 am

what odysseus said.

simply rest at ease and peace, and follow the stream to the source.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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