Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:33 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Getting back to the original question, I would doubt very much that such practices are used in Seon Buddhism. And if you ask any Seon (or Zen or Chan) monks they will be happy to explain that conversion is not required or requested by Seon (or Zen or Chan). The Empty Mirror by van de Wetering has an illuminating story about what happened when an overager Dutchman kept asking for a conversion ceremony in a Japanese Zen monastery. If you feel that your view of the cannon is more correct then their view you will have an interesting discussion (Korean monks do study the cannon by the way).
I don't know these details...nor want to go to debate..just saying that there is some conversion ceremony happened in Korea by former christian convert to Buddhism..the opinion may vary from tradition to other..from master to another

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:26 pm

Well, no. Opinion does not differ as conversion would be antithetical to the whole Seon (the leading Buddhist denomination by far in Korea) project of finding your true nature, not changing it. You can find in archaic Indian texts an old welcoming "conversion" ceremony in early Buddhism, but it would not be used in any Zen related school. Any ceremony you may have seen would not be a conversion ceremony, but something else (like welcoming a new person or returning student). No Seon master would ask for or require conversion. That said, the religion or organization you previously belonged to may kick you out or ask you to formally resign. You can always convert yourself to whatever belief system. However, that would not be any business of Seon. Of course, I cannot speak about any pseudo-Buddhist or pseudo-Zen fringe groups or cults and such do exit in Korea and elsewhere.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by zengen » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:39 am

Mudras are practiced in Shingon. But did the nine syllable Kuji originate in Shingon or Esoteric Buddhism? That I don't know. If you want to practice, just practice. Spending so much time in research and debate can be fruitless. Not to offend anyone... just saying.
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:48 am

zengen wrote:Mudras are practiced in Shingon. But did the nine syllable Kuji originate in Shingon or Esoteric Buddhism? That I don't know. If you want to practice, just practice. Spending so much time in research and debate can be fruitless. Not to offend anyone... just saying.
correct..they definetly do..though the question is originating from them or not(Shingon or esoteric), is very disputed thing, and most probably will never settle down

I will try to find way to practice it

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by zengen » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:30 am

ShineeSeoul wrote: I will try to find way to practice it
When I wrote "to practice", I meant in the context of teacher and disciple relationship. It doesn't mean to practice alone, without proper guidance from a teacher. Maybe one day you travel to Korea to find a teacher, that's what I meant.

By the way, if your goal is enlightenment (I hope your goal is enlightenment and nothing else!), it's not essential to practice Mudras or Kuji. Mudras are just "expedient means" to help you on the path to enlightenment, and are not the end themselves. However, Mudras and related techniques can be misused by people who deviate from the goal of enlightenment and have selfish goals in mind (Chosun Ninja is a good example. This Chosun Ninja is possibly possessed by a demon). You can also explore other sides of Buddhism as well as other Buddhist schools, not just the Esoteric ones (maybe you already do?), rather than placing so much importance on Mudras and Esotericism.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Seishin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:38 am

Reading through the various books and articles on the subject, it seems to me that there has been some confusion about the difference between "ku-ji" as practiced by some Buddhist schools, and "kuji-in" as practiced by "ninjas" and Shugendo priests. "Ku-ji" simply means "nine verses", and these can be found in various Buddhist traditions. Kakuban (a Shingon monk) wrote some (Gorin kuji myō himitsu shaku) and used Avalokitesvara, Amitabha and the Nine Deities of the Inner Sanctum of the Taizo-kai Mandala as his influences. Shinran used one (九字名號 Kuji myogo 南無不可思議光如來 NA MO FU KA SHI GI KO NYO RAI) Nichiren used one from the Lotus Sutra (Ryo-hyaku-yu-jun-nai-mu-sho-sui-gen), and if memory serves correctly, there are some in Tendai also. However, it must be stressed that these ku-ji are completely different to the "kuji-in" practiced by Ninjas ie 臨兵闘者皆陣列在前 Rin Pyōh Tōh Sha Kai Jin Retsu Zai Zen. This seems to be the biggest source of confusion, rather than contention. We can't be sure whether these Japanese monks based their practice on the Taoist "Kuji-in", but it should be stressed that these practices are different. Those "American ninja" books that state Kuji-in is Buddhist in origin, seem to be confusing "ku-ji" with "kuji-in", stating Kakuban and the Taizokai as it's origins, however, the two practices are actually different.

The next question is, ShineeSeoul, are you asking about "kuji-in" as practiced by "ninjas" (Rin Pyōh Tōh Sha Kai Jin Retsu Zai Zen), or are you asking about "ku-ji" as practiced in various Buddhist schools, and if so, which school specifically? "Kuji-in" is not part of Korean Buddhism, and I have not come across ku-ji in Korean Seon, however they do use mantras as part of their liturgy.

Here are some Korean Seon mantras:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkRuARu9f0w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qfE-mogilU

And here is the Liturgy book for a Korean Seon school, in which you will find many mantras as practiced by Korean Seon. I hope this helps http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Zen-Liturgy.pdf

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:40 pm

Mantra and some Tantric elements can be found in Korean Seon. Mantras and dharanis can also be found in Zen and Chan as well.

By the way, the chant book linked to is prepared by a Kwan Um teacher and is slightly different from the liturgy used in Korean temples. Kwan Um is an international, predominantly Western organization founded in the U.S. by a Korean Chogye (the main Seon group in Korea) monk. it has a loose affiliation with Chogye, but is not a part of the organization. So perhaps "Korean Seon inspired or derived" would be more accurate if less literary!

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:04 am

Seishin wrote:Reading through the various books and articles on the subject, it seems to me that there has been some confusion about the difference between "ku-ji" as practiced by some Buddhist schools, and "kuji-in" as practiced by "ninjas" and Shugendo priests. "Ku-ji" simply means "nine verses", and these can be found in various Buddhist traditions. Kakuban (a Shingon monk) wrote some (Gorin kuji myō himitsu shaku) and used Avalokitesvara, Amitabha and the Nine Deities of the Inner Sanctum of the Taizo-kai Mandala as his influences. Shinran used one (九字名號 Kuji myogo 南無不可思議光如來 NA MO FU KA SHI GI KO NYO RAI) Nichiren used one from the Lotus Sutra (Ryo-hyaku-yu-jun-nai-mu-sho-sui-gen), and if memory serves correctly, there are some in Tendai also. However, it must be stressed that these ku-ji are completely different to the "kuji-in" practiced by Ninjas ie 臨兵闘者皆陣列在前 Rin Pyōh Tōh Sha Kai Jin Retsu Zai Zen. This seems to be the biggest source of confusion, rather than contention. We can't be sure whether these Japanese monks based their practice on the Taoist "Kuji-in", but it should be stressed that these practices are different. Those "American ninja" books that state Kuji-in is Buddhist in origin, seem to be confusing "ku-ji" with "kuji-in", stating Kakuban and the Taizokai as it's origins, however, the two practices are actually different.

The next question is, ShineeSeoul, are you asking about "kuji-in" as practiced by "ninjas" (Rin Pyōh Tōh Sha Kai Jin Retsu Zai Zen), or are you asking about "ku-ji" as practiced in various Buddhist schools, and if so, which school specifically? "Kuji-in" is not part of Korean Buddhism, and I have not come across ku-ji in Korean Seon, however they do use mantras as part of their liturgy.

Here are some Korean Seon mantras:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkRuARu9f0w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qfE-mogilU

And here is the Liturgy book for a Korean Seon school, in which you will find many mantras as practiced by Korean Seon. I hope this helps http://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Zen-Liturgy.pdf
Mantras are part of all Mahayana school as well as Vajrayana. because its already in the Tripitaka
I was asking about Kuji In as Ninja/ Shugendo/ Shingon schools..Kuji is abroad term, yes, I think Kuji is the origin of Kuji In, practice are different, but this is where Kuji In has born from..I don't think they are confused

yes, Korean Seon does not practice Kuji In, but possibily, it could be practiced in Korean Esoteric Buddhism..thats what I am searching..there is little resources about it, and it seems to me, every Korean Buddhist sect is largely influenced by Seon Buddhism, almost all of them practice 108 bows, which is known as Zen practice, but in Korea all do it, unlike in Japan, where different school is not influenced by Zen

I just wondered if Chinese Chan do 108 bows? if yes...do Pureland also do it?

Thanks for the links..I knows the Seon practices

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:11 am

zengen wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: I will try to find way to practice it
When I wrote "to practice", I meant in the context of teacher and disciple relationship. It doesn't mean to practice alone, without proper guidance from a teacher. Maybe one day you travel to Korea to find a teacher, that's what I meant.

By the way, if your goal is enlightenment (I hope your goal is enlightenment and nothing else!), it's not essential to practice Mudras or Kuji. Mudras are just "expedient means" to help you on the path to enlightenment, and are not the end themselves. However, Mudras and related techniques can be misused by people who deviate from the goal of enlightenment and have selfish goals in mind (Chosun Ninja is a good example. This Chosun Ninja is possibly possessed by a demon). You can also explore other sides of Buddhism as well as other Buddhist schools, not just the Esoteric ones (maybe you already do?), rather than placing so much importance on Mudras and Esotericism.
why chosunNinja is selfish?
he teach Ninja at least for Free..unlike other a lots of teacher who ask for money...even some so called enlightened teacher ask for money..which I find it strange

any way, my aim for practicing mudras is for enlightment, if not, born in pureland at least, I find my self cannot fit with silent non-moving meditation..so i was searching for moving medtation with mantras, I fit better with that one

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:10 am

There are no known Korean Esoteric Buddhist sects. There appear to be a few Japanese Shingon derived sects in Korea and some eccentric cults that claim to have something to do with Esoteric Buddhism, but are just made up.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by jmlee369 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:39 am

As a Korean, let me just say that if you tried to do anything like kuji-in in a Seon meditation hall, you would promptly be beaten and kicked out. There is no such thing as kuji-in in Korean Buddhism. The mainstream practice of seon is to be found in the seon halls of larger monastic complexes that host monks and nuns for the two annual retreat seasons. The rules there are very strict, and no other practices other than seon meditation are allowed during the practice sessions. Not even the daily morning and evening ceremonies are observed. Lay people are not allowed either, and even for monks and nuns, you must have graduated from the sutra and shastra studies curriculum at a monastic college before you are allowed to join a seon hall (in the Jogye Order at least, the dominant Buddhist order in S. Korea). Also, I have no idea what led you to the conclusion that Seon is the most authentic form of Buddhism. There's no evidence for such claims out there.

Also, whatever difference of opinion you have with Rev. Eijo, you must realise that when you disagree with him on issues of Shingon doctrine and practice, you are pretty much going against the official Shingon line. Rev. Eijo is a high level acarya (ajari), certified as a vajra master at Koyasan, the official headquarters of the dominant Shingon branch. You're not going to get anymore orthodox Shingon than that.

As for conversion, the official line is that you can register as a devotee/member of temple, which grants you membership into the Jogye Order (free entry to temples if you show your Jogye ID). That's on a bureaucratic level. On a more religious level, you need to take the five precepts (and three refuges), upon which you receive a Dharma name, and a stamped and signed certificate.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by jmlee369 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:44 am

Oh, and I forgot to mention. The 108 bows is a sutra practice so it is found in many different places, even Tibet, not just seon settings. In fact, most seon monks would not advocate is as a seon practice. When it comes to seon in Korea, it means nothing other than hwadu seon (from gongan/koan). The 108 Great Repentance (as it is known in Korea) is also part of the standard Chinese evening ceremony, but they don't do the bows, they just recite the names of the Buddhas. There are 88 Buddha names in the text as a whole, hence the title "88 Buddhas Repentance" in Chinese.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Seishin » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:51 am

ShineeSeoul wrote: Mantras are part of all Mahayana school as well as Vajrayana. because its already in the Tripitaka
I was asking about Kuji In as Ninja/ Shugendo/ Shingon schools..Kuji is abroad term, yes, I think Kuji is the origin of Kuji In, practice are different, but this is where Kuji In has born from..I don't think they are confused

yes, Korean Seon does not practice Kuji In, but possibily, it could be practiced in Korean Esoteric Buddhism..thats what I am searching..there is little resources about it, and it seems to me, every Korean Buddhist sect is largely influenced by Seon Buddhism, almost all of them practice 108 bows, which is known as Zen practice, but in Korea all do it, unlike in Japan, where different school is not influenced by Zen

I just wondered if Chinese Chan do 108 bows? if yes...do Pureland also do it?

Thanks for the links..I knows the Seon practices
Mantras play a different role and hold a different significance in different traditions. This is something not to be overlooked. They may be found in all Mahayana schools, but their importance differs greatly. Even if the Korean Esoteric School was still alive (which it isn't), you'd need to visit and study with a master. In the Japanese traditions you need to ordain to be able to study mikkyo. For more info about Korean Esoteric Buddhism I recommend you read 'Tantric Buddhism in East Asia' by Dr Richard K. Payne, who studied Shingon on Mt Koya, Japan.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:57 pm

Just a note -- If the OP is interested in Korean Seon and in Korea, the OP can easily just visit a temple. At big temples living quarters and the main meditation hall, especially during the long retreats or when being used by the monks, are closed to casual visitors unless they are invited. This is for obvious administrative reasons. By the way, if you look inside you will see the main meditation hall is deliberately undecorated, except for a mirror so you are not missing any hidden art treasures here. The other buildings are usually open and people walk in all the time to do prostrations, quiet chanting, meditation, prayer, etc. when there is not a scheduled public service going on that they can participate in. A small admission is charged to Korean and foreign tourists at many larger, historic complexes as the sites are required by the government to also operate as tourist sites. If you have a common language and they are not busy doing something else (like chanting or performing a service), Korean monks are usually quite easy to engage with and can probably help direct you to opportunities for deeper study.

Many Korean temples and groups now have organized mediation sessions and groups for lay people at temples and elsewhere. Chogye or Jogye (the dominant Seon order) has a small, but active, outreach program for foreigners in Korea who are curious about Korean Seon Buddhism, conducted in English (although you can now find the occasional Korean monk who speaks French or other languages). Of course, there is an active web presence in Korean and English (I don't know about other languages).

There are also several temples abroad now. There are an increasing number of Chogye temples in the US at least. Almost everyone speaks English, although services are usually in Korean. You might want to check that out if you have a Korean Seon temple near you.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by zengen » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:27 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote: why chosunNinja is selfish?
he teach Ninja at least for Free..unlike other a lots of teacher who ask for money...even some so called enlightened teacher ask for money..which I find it strange
Saoshun wrote: This guy just playing with ninjitsu which is magic/energy work.

His goal is not enlightenment.
ShineeSeoul wrote: any way, my aim for practicing mudras is for enlightment, if not, born in pureland at least, I find my self cannot fit with silent non-moving meditation..so i was searching for moving medtation with mantras, I fit better with that one
If your aim is to be reborn in a Pure Land, I would suggest chanting Amitabha Buddha's name and read up on Pure Land Buddhism.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Saoshun » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:36 pm

There are mudras for enlightenment but they are passed thru teacher, they are pretty powerful tho and have very healing potential but must be first properly passed as they are esoteric teachings - many people "why is that? why not just give away instructions?" because it's like giving you flower, it's must be given proper way. There are ways to self-initiate yourself without teacher tho but you must realize many things before like emptiness than you can just reach for initiation for yourself with your mind as you would with the teacher because it's the same source.

Also you have very crude mind so you need a good teacher or just do mantras to purify the mind from ignorance.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by yan kong » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:31 pm

Caodemarte wrote:Just a note -- If the OP is interested in Korean Seon and in Korea, the OP can easily just visit a temple. At big temples living quarters and the main meditation hall, especially during the long retreats or when being used by the monks, are closed to casual visitors unless they are invited. This is for obvious administrative reasons. By the way, if you look inside you will see the main meditation hall is deliberately undecorated, except for a mirror so you are not missing any hidden art treasures here. The other buildings are usually open and people walk in all the time to do prostrations, quiet chanting, meditation, prayer, etc. when there is not a scheduled public service going on that they can participate in. A small admission is charged to Korean and foreign tourists at many larger, historic complexes as the sites are required by the government to also operate as tourist sites. If you have a common language and they are not busy doing something else (like chanting or performing a service), Korean monks are usually quite easy to engage with and can probably help direct you to opportunities for deeper study.

Many Korean temples and groups now have organized mediation sessions and groups for lay people at temples and elsewhere. Chogye or Jogye (the dominant Seon order) has a small, but active, outreach program for foreigners in Korea who are curious about Korean Seon Buddhism, conducted in English (although you can now find the occasional Korean monk who speaks French or other languages). Of course, there is an active web presence in Korean and English (I don't know about other languages).

There are also several temples abroad now. There are an increasing number of Chogye temples in the US at least. Almost everyone speaks English, although services are usually in Korean. You might want to check that out if you have a Korean Seon temple near you.
The OP mentioned he lives in a predominantly Muslim country and has no access to Dharma centers.
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:17 am

Yes, you are right. He said he was staying in a predominantly Muslim country and I don't think there are any Seon temples operating in Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. although there are plenty of other temples. There are small lay Zen groups scattered throughout the Arab world, but not Seon related. So I guess the only way to visit a Seon temple is to travel or use the Internet!http://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php? ... 5&p=286782#

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:43 am

jmlee369 wrote:As a Korean, let me just say that if you tried to do anything like kuji-in in a Seon meditation hall, you would promptly be beaten and kicked out. There is no such thing as kuji-in in Korean Buddhism. The mainstream practice of seon is to be found in the seon halls of larger monastic complexes that host monks and nuns for the two annual retreat seasons. The rules there are very strict, and no other practices other than seon meditation are allowed during the practice sessions. Not even the daily morning and evening ceremonies are observed. Lay people are not allowed either, and even for monks and nuns, you must have graduated from the sutra and shastra studies curriculum at a monastic college before you are allowed to join a seon hall (in the Jogye Order at least, the dominant Buddhist order in S. Korea). Also, I have no idea what led you to the conclusion that Seon is the most authentic form of Buddhism. There's no evidence for such claims out there.

Also, whatever difference of opinion you have with Rev. Eijo, you must realise that when you disagree with him on issues of Shingon doctrine and practice, you are pretty much going against the official Shingon line. Rev. Eijo is a high level acarya (ajari), certified as a vajra master at Koyasan, the official headquarters of the dominant Shingon branch. You're not going to get anymore orthodox Shingon than that.

As for conversion, the official line is that you can register as a devotee/member of temple, which grants you membership into the Jogye Order (free entry to temples if you show your Jogye ID). That's on a bureaucratic level. On a more religious level, you need to take the five precepts (and three refuges), upon which you receive a Dharma name, and a stamped and signed certificate.
Thanks for the information...I already know that Kuji In is not part of Korean Seon

so is every visit to Jogye temple there must be fees? what if for worshiping reason and not tourist?

I understand the rules to practice Buddhism from their point of view in order to keep it original, but beating? I think that going too far
Last edited by ShineeSeoul on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:45 am

Caodemarte wrote:Yes, you are right. He said he was staying in a predominantly Muslim country and I don't think there are any Seon temples operating in Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. although there are plenty of other temples. There are small lay Zen groups scattered throughout the Arab world, but not Seon related. So I guess the only way to visit a Seon temple is to travel or use the Internet!http://www.dharmawheel.net/posting.php? ... 5&p=286782#
I am staying in Arab country where buddhist temples is forbiden, but later will gona travel to malaysia

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