Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:48 am

Caodemarte wrote:Just a note -- If the OP is interested in Korean Seon and in Korea, the OP can easily just visit a temple. At big temples living quarters and the main meditation hall, especially during the long retreats or when being used by the monks, are closed to casual visitors unless they are invited. This is for obvious administrative reasons. By the way, if you look inside you will see the main meditation hall is deliberately undecorated, except for a mirror so you are not missing any hidden art treasures here. The other buildings are usually open and people walk in all the time to do prostrations, quiet chanting, meditation, prayer, etc. when there is not a scheduled public service going on that they can participate in. A small admission is charged to Korean and foreign tourists at many larger, historic complexes as the sites are required by the government to also operate as tourist sites. If you have a common language and they are not busy doing something else (like chanting or performing a service), Korean monks are usually quite easy to engage with and can probably help direct you to opportunities for deeper study.

Many Korean temples and groups now have organized mediation sessions and groups for lay people at temples and elsewhere. Chogye or Jogye (the dominant Seon order) has a small, but active, outreach program for foreigners in Korea who are curious about Korean Seon Buddhism, conducted in English (although you can now find the occasional Korean monk who speaks French or other languages). Of course, there is an active web presence in Korean and English (I don't know about other languages).

There are also several temples abroad now. There are an increasing number of Chogye temples in the US at least. Almost everyone speaks English, although services are usually in Korean. You might want to check that out if you have a Korean Seon temple near you.
I have entered buddhist temple before, I wasn't charged

is the Korean temple charge everybody who enter it? I think it must be free...worship shoudln't mixed with money

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:52 am

Seishin wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: Mantras are part of all Mahayana school as well as Vajrayana. because its already in the Tripitaka
I was asking about Kuji In as Ninja/ Shugendo/ Shingon schools..Kuji is abroad term, yes, I think Kuji is the origin of Kuji In, practice are different, but this is where Kuji In has born from..I don't think they are confused

yes, Korean Seon does not practice Kuji In, but possibily, it could be practiced in Korean Esoteric Buddhism..thats what I am searching..there is little resources about it, and it seems to me, every Korean Buddhist sect is largely influenced by Seon Buddhism, almost all of them practice 108 bows, which is known as Zen practice, but in Korea all do it, unlike in Japan, where different school is not influenced by Zen

I just wondered if Chinese Chan do 108 bows? if yes...do Pureland also do it?

Thanks for the links..I knows the Seon practices
Mantras play a different role and hold a different significance in different traditions. This is something not to be overlooked. They may be found in all Mahayana schools, but their importance differs greatly. Even if the Korean Esoteric School was still alive (which it isn't), you'd need to visit and study with a master. In the Japanese traditions you need to ordain to be able to study mikkyo. For more info about Korean Esoteric Buddhism I recommend you read 'Tantric Buddhism in East Asia' by Dr Richard K. Payne, who studied Shingon on Mt Koya, Japan.
There is small group of Korean esoteric linages, most of them seems have similiarity with Shingon in Japan, with Seon infleunces..I think their practices is interesting, but there is little resources about them

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ShineeSeoul
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:54 am

Caodemarte wrote:There are no known Korean Esoteric Buddhist sects. There appear to be a few Japanese Shingon derived sects in Korea and some eccentric cults that claim to have something to do with Esoteric Buddhism, but are just made up.
do you have the names of these lenages?

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by jmlee369 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:10 am

The two most prominent "esoteric" groups in Korea are Jingak-jong (진각종) and Chongji-jong (총지종). Chongji-jong is actually a latter branch of Jingak-jong, so they both have the same origins. The story goes that Son Gyusang attained enlightenment in 1947 through intense recitation of Avalokitesvara's Six Syllable Mantra (om mani padme hum, a widely practiced mantra throughout Korean Buddhism), and thereafter established this esoteric school. Later, due to some doctrinal conflicts, another man split away to start Chongji-jong. Both groups focus on the recitation of the Six Syllable Mantra (and in the case of Chongji-jong, the mantra of Cundi Bodhisattva) along with a few mudras and visualisations. Neither group is an authentic esoteric group, however, because they do not carry the lineage of abhisheka (initiation/empowerment) into a mandala which is necessary for deity yoga, the defining feature of esoteric Buddhism. Therefore, no matter how much Jingak-jong and Chongji-jong insist they are proper esoteric Buddhism, they are in reality just another new religious movement. They have very little in common with Shingon. Neither group uses kuji-in.

As for entrance fees, most of the major temples in Korea are also (unfortunately) major tourists sites as Caodemarte pointed out, and they will charge you unless you have a Jogyejong membership card. Such temples include Tongdosa, Haeinsa, Songgwangsa, Sudeoksa, Bulguksa, etc. It's 3000 won per adult, roughly 2.50 USD. Smaller temples will not collect a fee.

Also with regards to your trip to Malaysia, you should know that there are a lot of Buddhist groups in Malaysia that look legitimate on the surface but are not authentic teachings, so much so that people who have even a moderate understanding of Buddhism can be fooled. There are many false teachers in Malaysia, so I would encourage you to be careful, and especially to not let your curiosity about esoteric and secret teachings get the better of y ou. For you to truly practice such things as mudras and mantras properly, you must have a thorough grounding in the general doctrines and practices of the sutras (both Theravada and Mahayana), then examine and check a teacher for (ideally) 12 years before you receive abhisekha from them. Most of us will have enough work to do with the sutras in our lifetimes without getting anywhere close to esoteric practices.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:52 pm

jmlee369 wrote:The two most prominent "esoteric" groups in Korea are Jingak-jong (진각종) and Chongji-jong (총지종). Chongji-jong is actually a latter branch of Jingak-jong, so they both have the same origins. The story goes that Son Gyusang attained enlightenment in 1947 through intense recitation of Avalokitesvara's Six Syllable Mantra (om mani padme hum, a widely practiced mantra throughout Korean Buddhism), and thereafter established this esoteric school. Later, due to some doctrinal conflicts, another man split away to start Chongji-jong. Both groups focus on the recitation of the Six Syllable Mantra (and in the case of Chongji-jong, the mantra of Cundi Bodhisattva) along with a few mudras and visualisations. Neither group is an authentic esoteric group, however, because they do not carry the lineage of abhisheka (initiation/empowerment) into a mandala which is necessary for deity yoga, the defining feature of esoteric Buddhism. Therefore, no matter how much Jingak-jong and Chongji-jong insist they are proper esoteric Buddhism, they are in reality just another new religious movement. They have very little in common with Shingon. Neither group uses kuji-in.

As for entrance fees, most of the major temples in Korea are also (unfortunately) major tourists sites as Caodemarte pointed out, and they will charge you unless you have a Jogyejong membership card. Such temples include Tongdosa, Haeinsa, Songgwangsa, Sudeoksa, Bulguksa, etc. It's 3000 won per adult, roughly 2.50 USD. Smaller temples will not collect a fee.

Also with regards to your trip to Malaysia, you should know that there are a lot of Buddhist groups in Malaysia that look legitimate on the surface but are not authentic teachings, so much so that people who have even a moderate understanding of Buddhism can be fooled. There are many false teachers in Malaysia, so I would encourage you to be careful, and especially to not let your curiosity about esoteric and secret teachings get the better of y ou. For you to truly practice such things as mudras and mantras properly, you must have a thorough grounding in the general doctrines and practices of the sutras (both Theravada and Mahayana), then examine and check a teacher for (ideally) 12 years before you receive abhisekha from them. Most of us will have enough work to do with the sutras in our lifetimes without getting anywhere close to esoteric practices.
Thanks for the brief information

esoteric Buddhism doesn't have to involve diety yoga..that thing is in Tibet, Mongolia etc...in Japan, they don't do this thing as what I know

hmmm I think that is bad policy the Korean government is doing..I doubt if christians are doing this to create hindurance to Buddhism in Korea? most of the government worker are christian I guess...I believe that must be changed..even if the amount is not big, its symbolicaly bad

as for Buddhism, I have basic grounding for Mantras, I read the cannon, and already took refugee and 5 precept, however, even in malaysia I don't think I can practice buddhism openly, if they know you are supposed to be muslim, they might jail you or deport...I am aware there is a lots of fake chinese monks in kuala lumpor who came to tourist to collect money..I don't think they are authentic, because they are not supposed to take money, and they even don't bother with locals

last question...why did chosunNinja said Kuji In is practiced by Buddhist in Korea? is he making up things?

thanks

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by eijo » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:37 pm

ShineeSeoul wrote:
esoteric Buddhism doesn't have to involve diety yoga..that thing is in Tibet, Mongolia etc...in Japan, they don't do this thing as what I know
Sorry, you're wrong. Mainstream Japanese esoteric Buddhist practice is thoroughly about deity yoga. There are a handful of minor practices that are not full deity yogas.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by jmlee369 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:48 am

ShineeSeoul wrote: Thanks for the brief information

esoteric Buddhism doesn't have to involve diety yoga..that thing is in Tibet, Mongolia etc...in Japan, they don't do this thing as what I know
As Rev. Eijo pointed out already, deity yoga is the defining feature of esoteric Buddhism in both Tibet and Japan. These two repositories of esoteric Buddhist lineages share a common source in India, and the two primary practices of the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas in Shingon have parallel transmissions Tibet.
ShineeSeoul wrote: hmmm I think that is bad policy the Korean government is doing..I doubt if christians are doing this to create hindurance to Buddhism in Korea? most of the government worker are christian I guess...I believe that must be changed..even if the amount is not big, its symbolicaly bad


To the contrary, the deal is a massive money maker for the temples. Many of the major Korean temples are home to countless national cultural treasures, as designated by the government (kind of like UNESCO's World Heritage Site designation), so the Korean government gives the Jogye Order crazy amounts of money to maintain those historic treasures. This is also why elections for the abbot at the major monasteries are always so contentious and scandalous, because these larger temples handle massive amounts of money which can be used to purchase luxuries. Same thing with the administrative heads of the Jogye Order as a whole, since they are the largest landholder in the country after the government (worth some 900 million USD in 2008), and who knows how much they get from donations, because only 30% of temples report their earnings to the central office. For this current tax year, the Jogye Order received 44 million USD from the government to support various projects and programs.
ShineeSeoul wrote: as for Buddhism, I have basic grounding for Mantras, I read the cannon, and already took refugee and 5 precept, however, even in malaysia I don't think I can practice buddhism openly, if they know you are supposed to be muslim, they might jail you or deport...I am aware there is a lots of fake chinese monks in kuala lumpor who came to tourist to collect money..I don't think they are authentic, because they are not supposed to take money, and they even don't bother with locals
I was wondering about that, since Malaysia is a Muslim country after all. Why not a different country? But my warning was not with regard to monks on the street, I'm talking about people with big temples and huge statues, wearing fancy robes with hundreds of followers and all kinds of titles. Even those people are not necessarily trustworthy. Ultimately, the only benchmark of authenticity is whether they teach the dharma which leads to the complete eradication of your three poisons, i.e. attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
ShineeSeoul wrote: last question...why did chosunNinja said Kuji In is practiced by Buddhist in Korea? is he making up things?

thanks
Beause he wanted to sound authentic and convincing. It's always good to question everything you learn from random strangers on the internet who do not show real world credentials (for example, you can check up Rev. Eijo's qualifications quite easily). You may have noticed that chosun ninja was speaking with a rather strong American accent, and the kuji-in title part in the video was in Japanese. Chosun ninja references northern Three Kingdom monks, but that was more than 1500 years ago. There's almost nothing from that period that has survived in terms of transmissions, only artifacts and archaelogical sites. Most of modern day Korean Buddhist liturgical practices come from the 18th century at the earliest, with the standardized practices appearing in 1935.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:49 am

jmlee369 wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote: Thanks for the brief information

esoteric Buddhism doesn't have to involve diety yoga..that thing is in Tibet, Mongolia etc...in Japan, they don't do this thing as what I know
As Rev. Eijo pointed out already, deity yoga is the defining feature of esoteric Buddhism in both Tibet and Japan. These two repositories of esoteric Buddhist lineages share a common source in India, and the two primary practices of the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas in Shingon have parallel transmissions Tibet.
ShineeSeoul wrote: hmmm I think that is bad policy the Korean government is doing..I doubt if christians are doing this to create hindurance to Buddhism in Korea? most of the government worker are christian I guess...I believe that must be changed..even if the amount is not big, its symbolicaly bad


To the contrary, the deal is a massive money maker for the temples. Many of the major Korean temples are home to countless national cultural treasures, as designated by the government (kind of like UNESCO's World Heritage Site designation), so the Korean government gives the Jogye Order crazy amounts of money to maintain those historic treasures. This is also why elections for the abbot at the major monasteries are always so contentious and scandalous, because these larger temples handle massive amounts of money which can be used to purchase luxuries. Same thing with the administrative heads of the Jogye Order as a whole, since they are the largest landholder in the country after the government (worth some 900 million USD in 2008), and who knows how much they get from donations, because only 30% of temples report their earnings to the central office. For this current tax year, the Jogye Order received 44 million USD from the government to support various projects and programs.
ShineeSeoul wrote: as for Buddhism, I have basic grounding for Mantras, I read the cannon, and already took refugee and 5 precept, however, even in malaysia I don't think I can practice buddhism openly, if they know you are supposed to be muslim, they might jail you or deport...I am aware there is a lots of fake chinese monks in kuala lumpor who came to tourist to collect money..I don't think they are authentic, because they are not supposed to take money, and they even don't bother with locals
I was wondering about that, since Malaysia is a Muslim country after all. Why not a different country? But my warning was not with regard to monks on the street, I'm talking about people with big temples and huge statues, wearing fancy robes with hundreds of followers and all kinds of titles. Even those people are not necessarily trustworthy. Ultimately, the only benchmark of authenticity is whether they teach the dharma which leads to the complete eradication of your three poisons, i.e. attachment, aversion, and ignorance.
ShineeSeoul wrote: last question...why did chosunNinja said Kuji In is practiced by Buddhist in Korea? is he making up things?

thanks
Beause he wanted to sound authentic and convincing. It's always good to question everything you learn from random strangers on the internet who do not show real world credentials (for example, you can check up Rev. Eijo's qualifications quite easily). You may have noticed that chosun ninja was speaking with a rather strong American accent, and the kuji-in title part in the video was in Japanese. Chosun ninja references northern Three Kingdom monks, but that was more than 1500 years ago. There's almost nothing from that period that has survived in terms of transmissions, only artifacts and archaelogical sites. Most of modern day Korean Buddhist liturgical practices come from the 18th century at the earliest, with the standardized practices appearing in 1935.
Thanks for the information

usually huge money corrupt religion..even if Korean government doing this thing to support Jogye order, I think the result is the opposite

as in malaysia, there is a noticeable monks who goes around the tourists areas and restaurant requesting money! these are obvious fake one

the hiddin fake one are the one behind the titles and big temples(of course some) as you reffered to..it might not be easy to detect them

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:52 am

eijo wrote:
ShineeSeoul wrote:
esoteric Buddhism doesn't have to involve diety yoga..that thing is in Tibet, Mongolia etc...in Japan, they don't do this thing as what I know
Sorry, you're wrong. Mainstream Japanese esoteric Buddhist practice is thoroughly about deity yoga. There are a handful of minor practices that are not full deity yogas.
I see

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:17 pm

Although this may be of limited interest, the Korean government is not attempting to support Buddhism or any religion. The reason the government requires big, not small, temples to allow tourists and charge a tourist admission for people who are not guests, temple members or monks, involves tax and land-use issues. One central issue is the Korean government has said that it has an interest in allowing access by non-Buddhists, and most Koreans are neither Buddhist nor Christian, to historic sites occuyping some of the best scenery in Korea.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:41 pm

I find interesting video about Kuji In, though Kuji In in the video appear different then the one that is commonly used

its also appear as related to some sort of esoteric Buddhism in Korea?

phpBB [video]

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Ayu » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:35 pm

Hello ShineeSeoul,
here was another thread about Kuji-In: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2061
Recently there registered some new members all at once to do obstrusive advertizing for their tradition in that topic.
We removed these posts, because we regarded them as deceptive.
So I think, maybe this closed thread could be an interesting addition to this one?
:namaste:

(I have to admit: I didn't watch that video and don't know what you wanted to say to us with it.)
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:31 am

Ayu wrote:Hello ShineeSeoul,
here was another thread about Kuji-In: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2061
Recently there registered some new members all at once to do obstrusive advertizing for their tradition in that topic.
We removed these posts, because we regarded them as deceptive.
So I think, maybe this closed thread could be an interesting addition to this one?
:namaste:

(I have to admit: I didn't watch that video and don't know what you wanted to say to us with it.)
I didn't understand what are you trying to say?

I just wanted to know if Korean esoteric Buddhists do practice Kuji In as it appear from the video I found, or may be some of them might do..I was doubting that Kuji In might be still practiced by some outside of Japan

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Ayu » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:14 am

I just wanted to add that information. But now I'm not sure if this "Kuji-In" from that locked topic is the same as you are talking about inthis topic.
Who is it in that video? Is it a teacher of Korean buddhism? What's his name?
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:35 am

Ayu wrote:I just wanted to add that information. But now I'm not sure if this "Kuji-In" from that locked topic is the same as you are talking about inthis topic.
Who is it in that video? Is it a teacher of Korean buddhism? What's his name?
Kuji In is one practice, so it is same thing, however it have some different versions which is slightly different

I have no idea who is the one in the video, I found it randomly when I was searching the topic...it appear like he is practicing esoteric Buddhism from other video I saw

I just wanted to know if there is buddhist outside of Japan do practice Kuji In

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Ayu » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:24 am

As far as I understood this thread, and the one I linked in, it is doubtful that Kuji-In is a real buddhist practice at all.
Noone of the practitioners here supported your idea but tried to explain that it is dubious. Isn't it?
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by ShineeSeoul » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am

Ayu wrote:As far as I understood this thread, and the one I linked in, it is doubtful that Kuji-In is a real buddhist practice at all.
Noone of the practitioners here supported your idea but tried to explain that it is dubious. Isn't it?
This topic about Kuji In as I have said before many times, is largely disputable about its origin, some believe its from Buddhism, some not..its not the topic here actually

the topic is about who is practicing Kuji In among Buddhists..you need to read the former replays in this thread in order to understand

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Saoshun » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:12 am

Kuji have origins from india so it's before buddhist and all that things.

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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Ayu » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:21 am

But it didn't develop to buddhism, did I understand that right? "Esoteric Buddhism" is just a wrong modern lable, isn't it?

Sorry, ShineeSeoul: What tradition is this? Who is that teacher? Is this original Buddhadharma? Did Buddha teach this? These questions are always relevant and fundamental in buddhism or at least on a buddhist board. If it is called buddhism, it should have it's base in Buddhadharma and not somewhere else.
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Re: Question about Kuji in/Mudra?

Post by Seishin » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:21 am

From the looks of his Youtube channel, he is a self proclaimed exorcist.

phpBB [video]

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