Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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visitor_001
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Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm

Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.

All advice is welcome.

Many thanks.

Miroku
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by Miroku » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:10 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.

All advice is welcome.

Many thanks.
Take a good look at how you meditate. Are you tense when you do it? Do you repeat the mantra too fast? That could cause you to get tense and that could cause anger to arise. Also it could be just that you are now more noticing what is actually happening in your mind.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:52 pm

Thanks for you reply Miroku.

I'm relaxed when I meditate. Not sleepy and not tense. In my opinion I'm not reciting the mantra too fast. When I concentrate on the mantra I am aware of every syllable.

It could be that I'm more aware of the disturbing emotions. I certainly recognised this when I started meditating some years ago. I think this is a common side effect of mindfulness. However, I've just found myself becoming irritable during the day over he last several weeks and a couple of angry outbursts, which are not a commonplace occurrence for me. I've had a couple of dreams related to purification although not containing Vajrasattva.

I just have a real sense of disgust for samsara, for want of a better turn of phrase. I'm trying not to take these thoughts too seriously. I acknowledge that a degree of revulsion for conditioned existence is important as it can fuel my motivation to practice.

I don't feel anger during the meditation. It's during the day when I see people behaving in selfish ways.

Thanks again for your advice.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:00 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.

All advice is welcome.

Many thanks.
ask who gave you the ngondro method.

if you can't, then..

you apply Vajrsattva meditation for transforming that anger. Do it in that intention, the method is for manifesting that transformation.

do examine the process and it's results. base things on facts.

is the same for any poison.

in general, in vajrayana, emotions are allowed to arise in any quantity, variety, etc. important is you transform them. if they don't arise much, that's fine also.

btw, one should not force them to arise.

that's what i know, it's no secret to anyone.
Identities are false and not true

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Grigoris
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:08 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.

All advice is welcome.

Many thanks.
I can identify with this. What does your teacher say?

Mine made me stop Vajrasattva for a while and do some mandala accumulations.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:18 pm

I going to meet with my teacher next month to receive the instructions for Mandala Offerings, so I will also speak with him about this increase in disturbing emotions.

Thank you.

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kirtu
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by kirtu » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:42 am

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.
It is at least a kind of purification induced by an increase in concentration. So dealing with the feelings can be a form of purification because you have been forced to. Continuing with Vajrasattva meditation can result in purification through the practice (so purification of the feelings themselves through the blessing of the practice itself).

These things are not unusual.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:19 am

Thanks Kirtu.

Of course, the reason for my increased agitation might not be due to my Vajrasattva practice. Intuitively, however, I do feel there is some connection as I recently increased the intensity of my Vajrasattva practice.

In response to the earlier question regarding the speed of the mantra recitation, it takes me about 20-22 seconds to recite one mantra. I don't think I'm reciting the mantra too fast.

Once again, thanks for everyone's advice and comments.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:32 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
Hi.

I'm just looking for some advice. I am more than halfway through my Vajrasattva practice (as part of my Ngondro practice) and I find that I'm struggling with what appears to be an increase in disturbing emotions, anger in particular.

Is this a normal occurrence during the Vajrasattva purification practice? Should I just take this increase in negative emotions as the ripening of negative karmic traces and embrace them as signs of purification.

All advice is welcome.

Many thanks.
You got it bud. Angrily and powerfully repeat your mantras quickly. Put your back into it. Eventually that energy will burn out.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

smcj
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by smcj » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:02 pm

You got it bud. Angrily and powerfully repeat your mantras quickly. Put your back into it. Eventually that energy will burn out.
I’d like to offer a different approach.

Take Refuge from your anger and place your trust in the deity and the practice. The same goes for positive reactions to the practice. If you are doing the practice correctly, allow the chips to fall where they may. Don’t take two steps back by buying into your own b.s.

The question of whether or not you are doing the practice correctly or not is the main question you should have for your teacher. OTOH investing your self-will (your own b.s.) in the practice is just adding fuel to the fire.

I offer that as a general perspective on the subject, not a specific recommendation to any individual.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 pm

Hi smjc
smcj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:02 pm
OTOH investing your self-will (your own b.s.) in the practice is just adding fuel to the fire.
I'm not sure I follow your point here. If I understand you correctly you're telling me not to invest the negative emotions I'm experiencing into the mantra recitation, i.e. repeating the mantra angrily, powerfully and quickly. If I have read this correctly, then I agree. I see no point in generating more anger, planting more negative impressions, which will need to be purified.

Thanks again.

smcj
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by smcj » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:02 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:21 pm
Hi smjc
smcj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:02 pm
OTOH investing your self-will (your own b.s.) in the practice is just adding fuel to the fire.
I'm not sure I follow your point here. If I understand you correctly you're telling me not to invest the negative emotions I'm experiencing into the mantra recitation, i.e. repeating the mantra angrily, powerfully and quickly. If I have read this correctly, then I agree. I see no point in generating more anger, planting more negative impressions, which will need to be purified.
Yep. Do the practice, let go, and allow the practice to change you. Have an open mind and invest your good will.

I’ve heard about practices where you deliberately invoke a defilement so you can transform it into a Dharma Wisdom, but that’s at a higher level and I’be not been taught how to do it yet.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:34 pm

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

PeterC
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by PeterC » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:15 am

Is this primarily an on-the-cushion or an off-the-cushion problem? If it's the former, my personal approach to disturbing emotions during that sort of practice is to strengthen the visualization - much as if you're doing shamatha with an object, if your thoughts and emotions distract you, you can increase focus on the object.

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:07 pm

Hi Peter.

It's an off-the-cushion problem. I've noticed there has been an increase in disturbing emotions and I think it's due to increased sensitivity. I seem more are of suffering and not just my own. I find it's been making me a little 'ratty'.

There may be other causes but it seems to have co-incided with a decision to intensify my Vajrasattva practice. I was doing one sitting a day, but now I do up to three sittings in a day as I have a little more time than usual.

Thanks for your reply.

PeterC
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by PeterC » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:15 am

visitor_001 wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:07 pm
Hi Peter.

It's an off-the-cushion problem. I've noticed there has been an increase in disturbing emotions and I think it's due to increased sensitivity. I seem more are of suffering and not just my own. I find it's been making me a little 'ratty'.

There may be other causes but it seems to have co-incided with a decision to intensify my Vajrasattva practice. I was doing one sitting a day, but now I do up to three sittings in a day as I have a little more time than usual.

Thanks for your reply.
Thanks. There could be a lot of explanations, including things that have nothing to do with the dharma practice (changes in schedule usually happen for work- or home-related reasons, may involve changes in eating habits, etc etc.). For on-the-cushion issues there are often prescribed remedies, but for off-the-cushion problems I think the right answer is to ask your lama.

In any case you are aware of the issue and will presumably be aware if it becomes more acute, so the general sense of the suggestions above to just keep going and see how it develops probably isn't a bad idea.

haha
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by haha » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:37 pm

visitor_001 wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:59 pm
There could be many reasons for such experience. Few reasons I can provide you from my own understanding.

While you are chanting the mantra, you might have some emotion relating to anger in some degree. Or you might have chanting quickly, wrathfully, etc. As the result, you have experience anger in post-meditation. And many more.

Due to the power of meditation, your mindfulness is increasing and you are starting to notice your emotions in post-meditation.

During this practice, one may experience many emotions. It could be the sign of purification process that is started. You should also check your dreams.

You should also check teaching on vajrasattva. They would be really valuable resources and support to your practice. There are few books on this practice and many teachings/lectures in YouTube by genuine teachers. They will be supportive to your practice. If you are interested, I can provide some links that I have found useful for me. Or you can check yourself.

At the end, you will get your teacher advice.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

visitor_001
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Re: Vajrasattva meditation & disturbing emotions

Post by visitor_001 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:08 pm

Thanks haha.

I'm going to give it a few more weeks. I'm going to speak to a teacher about it at the end of next month, so hopefully he will be able to give me some reasons for this.

Thanks again. It's much appreciated.

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