A question about Dream Yoga

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
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DarkenTheWorld
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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by DarkenTheWorld » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:57 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:41 am
Throma Nagmo is fully enlightened. I imagine Lilith could/would be a worldly manifestation of Throma Nagmo...
Look, it is a matter of culture. Throma Nagmo is just like Kali, Ishtar, Lilith, Morrigan, etc. a projection of the same force, which is the dark feminine energy. Someone who was raised with tibetan culture will have an easier connection to Throma Nagmo, but somebody who is Irish for example will feel much more connected to her manifestation as Morrigan. When the irish pray to Morrigan, it is the same as a tibetan praying to Throma Nagmo. Both pray to the same essence, so you can't say that one is fully enlightened and the other not. Since we live in a dualistic world, these energies show themselves as different names, bodies and faces, because for non-realized souls like me it is hard to pray to a formless, abstract energy. But the end goal is the same in my opinion. We all seek unity and the realisation that all things have the same source. Some try to reach this source by devotion to "A" and others by devotion to "B". I believe that when one cultivates this unconditional love and devotion, one also merges with the "object" of devotion and you lose your false sense of self. So the way one reaches this goal might be very different between someone who devotes himself to Throma Nagmo and someone who devotes himself to Lilith, but the goal is the same.
The age-old "my god is the right god" debate should be left to the people who are trapped in the dualistic world of Maya.
Doing a Buddhist practice without taking Refuge in the Triple Jewel is, at best, a waste of your time.
Then I guess Swami Sivananda who never called himself a Buddhist just wasted his whole time?
The Buddha never placed unconditional demands on anyone's faith. He advises testing things for oneself. Buddha demands from you faith in your own Self, in your own latent forces and everyone's latent forces are different but lead to the same thing when applied with the right practices. Have you for example seen Yogis from different traditions trying to delegitimize each other? An enlightened tibetan Yogi will see the different schools of Buddhism and yet at the same time acknowledge that all of them lead to the same end, just like a realized hindu bhakti Yogi will see that a realized Raja Yogi reached the same goal as him, but with different methods and different experiences.
What you believe does not have much bearing. Under the influence of delusion people believe and reject all sorts of things.
I think it is interesting that you seem to be able to judge that I'm under the influence of delusion, when you don't even know what I really believe, how I conduct myself in everyday life and know absolutely nothing about my morals. This thread startet as a question on how I can improve my awareness of the dreamy nature of waking consciousness and now we seem to be hung up on an insignificant detail that I dropped in a sentence.
I once saw a guy, who was as high as a kite on LSD, jump into the middle of a fire and grab burning pieces of wood believing it could not hurt him.
I'm sorry but this analogy doesn't make sense to me. If you want to compare me with a drug addict whose actions and thoughts are all a result of karmic traces that he/she is not aware of, fine, but that's just not how it is. Buddha said that there should always be a healthy skepticism on matters concerning faith and I do have the necessary flexibility and skepticism. I'm not a dogmatic zealot. Buddha said: to put an end to suffering you should take certain things on faith, as working hypotheses, and then test them through following his path of practice.
That's why I'm doing dream yoga. I'm basically testing my faith. I want to know if my faith and the dreams associated with it are samsaric or the source of true wisdom. If they are a source of wisdom I will further approach them and try to attain enlightenment in my current life cycle. If not, then I am ready to let go of the faith.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Miroku » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:24 pm

DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:57 pm
Look, it is a matter of culture. Throma Nagmo is just like Kali, Ishtar, Lilith, Morrigan, etc. a projection of the same force, which is the dark feminine energy. Someone who was raised with tibetan culture will have an easier connection to Throma Nagmo, but somebody who is Irish for example will feel much more connected to her manifestation as Morrigan. When the irish pray to Morrigan, it is the same as a tibetan praying to Throma Nagmo. Both pray to the same essence, so you can't say that one is fully enlightened and the other not. Since we live in a dualistic world, these energies show themselves as different names, bodies and faces, because for non-realized souls like me it is hard to pray to a formless, abstract energy. But the end goal is the same in my opinion. We all seek unity and the realisation that all things have the same source. Some try to reach this source by devotion to "A" and others by devotion to "B". I believe that when one cultivates this unconditional love and devotion, one also merges with the "object" of devotion and you lose your false sense of self. So the way one reaches this goal might be very different between someone who devotes himself to Throma Nagmo and someone who devotes himself to Lilith, but the goal is the same.
The age-old "my god is the right god" debate should be left to the people who are trapped in the dualistic world of Maya.
Sorry but this is just false. The similarity does not necessary mean it is the same being. It might just mean that the enlightened being has manifested as a part of a class of being to subdue them.

Then I guess Swami Sivananda who never called himself a Buddhist just wasted his whole time?
The Buddha never placed unconditional demands on anyone's faith. He advises testing things for oneself. Buddha demands from you faith in your own Self, in your own latent forces and everyone's latent forces are different but lead to the same thing when applied with the right practices. Have you for example seen Yogis from different traditions trying to delegitimize each other? An enlightened tibetan Yogi will see the different schools of Buddhism and yet at the same time acknowledge that all of them lead to the same end, just like a realized hindu bhakti Yogi will see that a realized Raja Yogi reached the same goal as him, but with different methods and different experiences.
Calling yourself buddhist is not taking refuge. He maybe did take refuge, who knows. The fact is that this is a BUDDHIST forum and although it is lovely how open you are, it can also be a fault as you are mixing things together quite a bit.
I think it is interesting that you seem to be able to judge that I'm under the influence of delusion, when you don't even know what I really believe, how I conduct myself in everyday life and know absolutely nothing about my morals. This thread startet as a question on how I can improve my awareness of the dreamy nature of waking consciousness and now we seem to be hung up on an insignificant detail that I dropped in a sentence.
Your posts sound delusional. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, posts like a duck...
I'm sorry but this analogy doesn't make sense to me. If you want to compare me with a drug addict whose actions and thoughts are all a result of karmic traces that he/she is not aware of, fine, but that's just not how it is. Buddha said that there should always be a healthy skepticism on matters concerning faith and I do have the necessary flexibility and skepticism. I'm not a dogmatic zealot. Buddha said: to put an end to suffering you should take certain things on faith, as working hypotheses, and then test them through following his path of practice.
That's why I'm doing dream yoga. I'm basically testing my faith. I want to know if my faith and the dreams associated with it are samsaric or the source of true wisdom. If they are a source of wisdom I will further approach them and try to attain enlightenment in my current life cycle. If not, then I am ready to let go of the faith.
Nobody said he was a drug addict.
Yes, but Buddha also has advised us to trust his teachings and practice them. What you are doing is unnecessarily adding to them. It is nice you have experiences, but it is a symptom of pride to consider them that special and start saying that Lilith is a Troma Nagmo. Unless you give some real evidence for that that is backed by a lineage lama, then as far as I am concerned you are just mixing paths and worshipping a wordly deity, which breaks your refuge vows.
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
~ Khunu Lama Rinpoche

Even non-buddhists have many virtuous accomplishments
~ Jigten Sumgon

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:41 pm

DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:57 pm
Look, it is a matter of culture. Throma Nagmo is just like Kali, Ishtar, Lilith, Morrigan, etc. a projection of the same force, which is the dark feminine energy. Someone who was raised with tibetan culture will have an easier connection to Throma Nagmo...
Indian actually, but I will let it slide...
Both pray to the same essence...
Which essence is that exactly?
...so you can't say that one is fully enlightened and the other not.
Of course you can.
So the way one reaches this goal might be very different between someone who devotes himself to Throma Nagmo and someone who devotes himself to Lilith, but the goal is the same.
No it is not. Some people may be motivated by worldly gain, others by enlightenment. Different goals. Different methods. Different outcomes.
The age-old "my god is the right god" debate should be left to the people who are trapped in the dualistic world of Maya.
Throma Nagmo is not a God. God's are samsaric beings. Lilith is a God.
Then I guess Swami Sivananda who never called himself a Buddhist just wasted his whole time?
I have no idea what he was doing with his life, so I cannot answer your question. Was he doing Buddhist practices?
The Buddha never placed unconditional demands on anyone's faith.
When quoting, one should cite. ;)
He advises testing things for oneself.
And now you will misquote/misrepresent the Kalamas Sutta, just like hundreds of others have done on this site before you... How tedious...
Buddha demands from you faith in your own Self...
No he does not.
...in your own latent forces and everyone's latent forces are different but lead to the same thing when applied with the right practices.
What does "latent forces" mean?
I think it is interesting that you seem to be able to judge that I'm under the influence of delusion...
We are all under the influence of delusion.
This thread startet as a question on how I can improve my awareness of the dreamy nature of waking consciousness...
What is your motivation for "improve my awareness of the dreamy nature of waking consciousness"?
...and now we seem to be hung up on an insignificant detail that I dropped in a sentence.
Not insignificant at all when it comes to practicing Buddhism and (I will remind you again) you are on a Buddhist forum. Not a New Age forum. Not a neo-Pagan forum. Not...
I'm sorry but this analogy doesn't make sense to me. If you want to compare me with a drug addict whose actions and thoughts are all a result of karmic traces that he/she is not aware of...
You think you are aware of all your karmic traces?
Buddha said that there should always be a healthy skepticism on matters concerning faith...
No, he did not.

"(1) Faith (saddhā): The first of the beautiful cetasikās is faith63 (also translated
as “confidence”), which has the characteristic of placing faith in or of trusting. Its
function is to clarify, as a water-clearing gem causes muddy water to become clear; or its
function is to set forth, as one might set forth to cross a flood.64 It is manifested as nonfogginess,
that is, the removal of the mind’s impurities, or as resolution. Its proximate
cause is something to place faith in, or the hearing of the Good Dhamma, etc., that
constitute the factors of stream-entry (sotāpatti)."
A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma - The Abhidhammattha Sangaha of Ācariya Anuruddha
That's why I'm doing dream yoga. I'm basically testing my faith. I want to know if my faith and the dreams associated with it are samsaric or the source of true wisdom. If they are a source of wisdom I will further approach them and try to attain enlightenment in my current life cycle. If not, then I am ready to let go of the faith.
Testing your faith in what?

Dream Yoga is not about testing, it is about learning and realising.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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DarkenTheWorld
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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by DarkenTheWorld » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:57 pm

I decided to ask my question in a buddhist forum because dream yoga has its roots in Buddhism and I needed some advice on how to improve my awareness (but I guess it's just a matter of practice). I thought that this place would be ideal for asking this question I had about Tenzin's book.

I may be wrong but I have the impression that the answers you guys give me have cynical undertones (yeah those winking emoticons are really helpful) and every quotation of the words I wrote are meant to judge me and not really help me. I have thought about my issue since you guys answered and now I have come to the conclusion that the questions I have, cannot be solved in a forum. In no way did I want to make the impression that my experiences are "special", that is only a projection of the one accusing me of this. In no way did I try to make the impression that I am on a high pedestal and in no way did I try to misuse Buddha's teachings. I'm sorry if I caused any inconvenience. This matter is too complex for me to explain and I think I have to find out for myself if I am walking the right path or not. It's not something that can be intellectually explained. I wish you all well on your path and may we all find liberation. Goodbye.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:14 pm

DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:57 pm
I decided to ask my question in a buddhist forum because dream yoga has its roots in Buddhism...
Roots? It is a Buddhist practice,
and I needed some advice on how to improve my awareness (but I guess it's just a matter of practice). I thought that this place would be ideal for asking this question I had about Tenzin's book.
If you want to increase your awareness, then you need to practice Sati meditation.
I may be wrong but I have the impression that the answers you guys give me have cynical undertones (yeah those winking emoticons are really helpful) and every quotation of the words I wrote are meant to judge me and not really help me.
You are misunderstanding my intention. My intention is 100% to help you. It is just that what you perceive as help, differs from what I perceive as helpful.

Personally I have made plenty of mistakes on my path. I do not want to see others make the same mistakes.
I have thought about my issue since you guys answered and now I have come to the conclusion that the questions I have, cannot be solved in a forum.
NOW you are definitely onto something. These types of practices require the presence of a qualified teacher to deal directly with your questions. These types of practices require a really stable basis and that stable basis is Refuge in the Triple Jewel.

Your motivation will colour the results of this practice and if your practice is not based on bodhicitta (wisdom and compassion), well...
I'm sorry if I caused any inconvenience. This matter is too complex for me to explain and I think I have to find out for myself if I am walking the right path or not. It's not something that can be intellectually explained. I wish you all well on your path and may we all find liberation. Goodbye.
It is not a matter of inconvenience. Your questions are not inconvenient. It is just that, at this point in time, the answers may seem inconvenient to you.

Good luck on your path too. Without the direct guidance of a qualified teacher, with some level of realistion, you are going to need it; especially when it comes to practices like Dream Yoga.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:50 pm

DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:06 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:03 pm
I don't recall him saying you should just pick a random deity, but ok, maybe he did.
I didn't pick her randomly. The author wrote that I should pick a deity I feel most connected with.
I won't try to speak for TWR, he's pretty universalist in some of his advice in his books, knowing i'm sure that many non-Bonpo, non-Buddhists will read them, and I imagine wanting to benefit hem as much as possible. Personally I can't imagine these practices doing anything for you without a little more connection to Bon or Buddhism, the goal of these practices is enlightenment, as defined by those traditions....at the very least doing them for some altruistic purpose. Perhaps it's worth contemplating what you are doing the practices for, that is probably the main thing.

But yeah, you are onto something...eventually you will likely reach a point where it's worth making some contact with Ligmimncha members, TWR himself etc. for help and advice, rather than simply people you ask on this forum.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Vasana » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:47 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:14 pm
DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:57 pm
I may be wrong but I have the impression that the answers you guys give me have cynical undertones (yeah those winking emoticons are really helpful) and every quotation of the words I wrote are meant to judge me and not really help me.
You are misunderstanding my intention. My intention is 100% to help you. It is just that what you perceive as help, differs from what I perceive as helpful.

Personally I have made plenty of mistakes on my path. I do not want to see others make the same mistakes.
As a side note, I think this is actually quite important to highlight. I don't think DarkenTheWorld is wrong to perceive 'cynical undertones' here, even if respondees like Grigoris above are not intending it to be so.

Our intention is one thing, our words are another and then there is the 'tone' we use and the endless variety of tones a reader can pick up on. We cant say that the way someone reads our tone has nothing to do with the way we chose to present it.

Honestly I've seen it so many times when new members post and some people give the most bone dry, almost surgical responses. I imagine these dialogues would look much different in real-life and be more tactful and it would be good to see a % of that warmth or politeness we would show, face to face, shine through on here more often.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:12 am

Vasana wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:47 am
As a side note, I think this is actually quite important to highlight. I don't think DarkenTheWorld is wrong to perceive 'cynical undertones' here, even if respondees like Grigoris above are not intending it to be so.

...it would be good to see a % of that warmth or politeness we would show, face to face, shine through on here more often.

You think it is cynical to say that relying on a worldly being as a source of Refuge, can only lead to worldly gains?

Maybe it is cynical to say that the basis of all Buddhist practices (and Dream Yoga is a Buddhist practice) is Refuge in the Triple Jewel?

Is it cynical to say that motivation colours outcomes?

Or maybe it is cynical to say, on a Buddhist forum, that faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is a necessary and positive quality?

So where the f**k is the cynicism?

Also, I believe you will find that I WAS polite.

Don't confound "warmth and politeness" with patronising doting.

He asked questions, he got answers. It is just that the answers were not the ones he wanted to hear.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Vasana
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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Vasana » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:01 pm

His (or her) emphasis on the cynical undertones, mine on the tone of posting in which your latest reply is a perfect example of.

Just try and be a bit friendlier...

Compassionate wrath doesn't often come across as such on a forum.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:52 pm

I’ll also point out, the questions being asked are about Bonpo practices from (I think) the Mother Tantra, so while some of the advice might apply, quoting the Pali Canon doesn’t really fit.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Jehanne » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:52 pm

DarkenTheWorld wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:39 am

My question is now: how do you guys keep being lucid during these activities? Are there any tips on how to abide continuously in lucid presence during the day?

Thank you for reading this and have a nice day/night wherever you are,
DarkenTheWorld
Hi there!
To answer your question I'd perhaps suggest some abrupt sharpening of the senses, like a strong shout of a mantra ("PHET!) or tensing and relaxing your muscles, that has a tendency to cut through other stuff, into the natural state.

Ofcourse if the problem is that one does not remember to do this, them maybe setting a periodic timer will help! :twothumbsup:

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:06 pm

PSM wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:00 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:11 pm
Life is not "just a dream", that is not what the teachings say.
Some teachings do say exactly that.
Indeed.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:40 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:06 pm
PSM wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:00 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:11 pm
Life is not "just a dream", that is not what the teachings say.
Some teachings do say exactly that.
Indeed.
Sources?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:01 pm

They are easy enough to find! It's not something polemic in Dzogchen. If you approach dream yoga from a Dzogchen perspective, understanding reality is a dream (not just dream like), is the whole point of the practice. On the top of my head I can remember Padmasabhava's teachings on the six bardos and Terdak Lingpa's teachings on dream yoga among others.

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:01 pm
They are easy enough to find! It's not something polemic in Dzogchen. If you approach dream yoga from a Dzogchen perspective, understanding reality is a dream (not just dream like), is the whole point of the practice. On the top of my head I can remember Padmasabhava's teachings on the six bardos and Terdak Lingpa's teachings on dream yoga among others.
And in these teachings they say "life is a dream"? They don't say "life is like a dream" or "life is dreamlike"? They say "life IS a dream"?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: A question about Dream Yoga

Post by Dechen Norbu » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:01 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:17 pm
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:01 pm
They are easy enough to find! It's not something polemic in Dzogchen. If you approach dream yoga from a Dzogchen perspective, understanding reality is a dream (not just dream like), is the whole point of the practice. On the top of my head I can remember Padmasabhava's teachings on the six bardos and Terdak Lingpa's teachings on dream yoga among others.
And in these teachings they say "life is a dream"? They don't say "life is like a dream" or "life is dreamlike"? They say "life IS a dream"?
Yes. And that's the Dzogchen view. There are only empty appearances, Greg. You literally say, in the waken practice: I fell asleep. Life IS a dream. Not like a dream. Only it's an interdependent dream instead of a monodependent dream like those you have during the night.

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