Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:44 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:23 am
Some people made immediate entry through intention. Very rare as making actual entry regardless of which means!
??
LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:23 am
I personally stick to being clear (not appearance but knowing clearly without registering through any skandhas; unborn wisdom ) in that emptiness. That still knows ‘being clear’ is the consciousness its function is to make that distinction. In fact making all sort of distinction. Then followed by intention. You need to make a distinction between a table and chair before your intention kicks in.
??

Nevermind. That's why I usually prefer sutra quotes or quotes of commentaries on Large Prajnaparamita Sutra.
Last edited by SteRo on Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:45 am

I know it’s self speaking against self.
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:51 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:45 am
I know it’s self speaking against self.
??

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:51 am

:lol:
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:52 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:51 am
:lol:
??

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:16 am

The point is: If what you wanted to express with your words I marked with "??" would amount to prajnaparamita you would never have said what you have said above:
Then how do Great Bodhisattvas use prajna paramita on appearance without getting stuck!? True meaning of Prajnparamita is not complete when in a static state!?
Thanks for reminding! Self does arise in skandhas and will always does. The issue is do we discover it and how we manage it?
Here I will let you take partial responsibility for your view! On my end, indeed I find it hard to do. But because of emptiness is the reason why Great Bodhisattvas is able to course on appearance of consciousness (for them actually is wisdom) for the benefits of sentient beings. Whether anyone finds that useful or able to do practice it is another question? And I personally find it hard.
Although it’s what is taught it’s not easy to train. Forgive me to say one side view is not complete if stuck in it.
It’s also know that enlightened Bodhisattvas also give rise to views but us give rise to wrong views.
So whatever you wanted to convey with your words I marked with "??", it's not 'it'.

But obviously me using my private words and thus deviating from sutra triggered your words.
Last edited by SteRo on Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:20 am

Indeed! But we still have to discuss it, no?
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:28 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:20 am
Indeed! But we still have to discuss it, no?
Discussion in the context of prajnaparamita would mean Path of seeing. But of course one still might practice discussion following the path of preparation which is still wavering or following the path of accumulation which is 'outside'.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:33 am

I am not familiar with those!
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:55 am

One might briefly express it thus:
On the path of accumulation the sphere of experience has not even touched the signless.
On the path of preparation the sphere of experience has dissolved in the signless temporarily but there is wavering between meditation and post-meditation although in post-meditation belief in experience has gone.
On the path of seeing there is no difference between meditation and post-meditation in terms of integration of the signless into the sphere of experience.

Therefore in terms of discussion on the path of accumulation one may be coursing in signs and therefore in views. On the path of preparation taking up views may at least happen temporarily. On the path of seeing views will not be taken up even in discussions.

In reality there is no progress from path to path at all. The paths merely stand for different qualities of experience which is like "a dream, a mirage, an illusion, an echo, an image, a reflection, a village of the Gandharvas, a magical creation".

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am

Thanks!

I follow my teacher and referenced by this passage below in Mahaprajnaparamita by Manjushri. I don’t pay attention to path to path or feel the need. Just trying to transcend consciousness.

Mañjuśrī replied, “No, Śāriputra. Why not? Because the World-Honored One is the dharma realm. Verifying the dharma realm by means of the dharma realm would be a contradiction. Śāriputra, the appearance of the dharma realm is bodhi. Why? Because in the dharma realm sentient beings have no appearances, as all dharmas are empty. The emptiness of all dharmas is bodhi, which is non-dual and free from differentiation. Śāriputra, without differentiation, there is no knower. Without a knower, there are no words. Without words, there is neither existence nor nonexistence, neither knowing nor not knowing. This is true for all dharmas. Why? Because dharmas cannot be identified by places, which imply a definite nature. For example, the sinful appearance of the [five] rebellious acts is inconceivable. Why? Because the true reality of dharmas is indestructible. Thus, the sin of committing a rebellious act has no self-essence. True reality neither is reborn in heaven nor falls into hell, nor does it enter nirvāṇa. Why not? Because all karmic conditions abide in true reality, which is neither coming nor going, neither cause nor effect. Why? Because the dharma realm has no edge, neither front nor back. Therefore, Śāriputra, [in true reality] pure spiritual trainees do not enter nirvāṇa, and bhikṣus with grave sins do not fall into hell. They are neither worthy nor unworthy of offerings, neither ending nor not ending their afflictions. Why not? Because [in emptiness] all dharmas abide in equality.”
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:41 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:16 am
Thanks!

I follow my teacher and referenced by this passage below in Mahaprajnaparamita by Manjushri. I don’t pay attention to path to path or feel the need. Just trying to transcend consciousness.

Mañjuśrī replied, “No, Śāriputra. Why not? Because the World-Honored One is the dharma realm. Verifying the dharma realm by means of the dharma realm would be a contradiction. Śāriputra, the appearance of the dharma realm is bodhi. Why? Because in the dharma realm sentient beings have no appearances, as all dharmas are empty. The emptiness of all dharmas is bodhi, which is non-dual and free from differentiation. Śāriputra, without differentiation, there is no knower. Without a knower, there are no words. Without words, there is neither existence nor nonexistence, neither knowing nor not knowing. This is true for all dharmas. Why? Because dharmas cannot be identified by places, which imply a definite nature. For example, the sinful appearance of the [five] rebellious acts is inconceivable. Why? Because the true reality of dharmas is indestructible. Thus, the sin of committing a rebellious act has no self-essence. True reality neither is reborn in heaven nor falls into hell, nor does it enter nirvāṇa. Why not? Because all karmic conditions abide in true reality, which is neither coming nor going, neither cause nor effect. Why? Because the dharma realm has no edge, neither front nor back. Therefore, Śāriputra, [in true reality] pure spiritual trainees do not enter nirvāṇa, and bhikṣus with grave sins do not fall into hell. They are neither worthy nor unworthy of offerings, neither ending nor not ending their afflictions. Why not? Because [in emptiness] all dharmas abide in equality.”
There is no contradiction between this passage and following illusion-like paths. Therefore I have said:
In reality there is no progress from path to path at all. The paths merely stand for different qualities of experience which is like "a dream, a mirage, an illusion, an echo, an image, a reflection, a village of the Gandharvas, a magical creation".
So the big advantage of these illusion-like paths is that illusion-like practitioner can monitor illusion-like progress on the illusion-like path and never confuses illusion-like self with reality or reality with illusion-like self. That is applying skillful means without apprehending form, feeling, perception/discrimination, formations, consciousness.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:00 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:41 am
So the big advantage of these illusion-like paths is that illusion-like practitioner can monitor illusion-like progress on the illusion-like path and never confuses illusion-like self with reality or reality with illusion-like self. That is applying skillful means without apprehending form, feeling, perception/discrimination, formations, consciousness.
I can attest that I’ve received much warnings about possible constructed states. Mainly, that unborn wisdom (not any appearance even consciousness is appearance) is that non-differentiating wisdom. If one does not clearly know this unborn wisdom, it’s very possible to be stuck in emptiness.
Make personal vows.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:07 am

Also consciousness is the leading culprit of construction followed by other skandhas.
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:13 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:00 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:41 am
So the big advantage of these illusion-like paths is that illusion-like practitioner can monitor illusion-like progress on the illusion-like path and never confuses illusion-like self with reality or reality with illusion-like self. That is applying skillful means without apprehending form, feeling, perception/discrimination, formations, consciousness.
I can attest that I’ve received much warnings about possible constructed states. Mainly, that unborn wisdom (not any appearance even consciousness is appearance) is that non-differentiating wisdom. If one does not clearly know this unborn wisdom, it’s very possible to be stuck in emptiness.
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "illusion-like"? It is a simile. It is not saying "this is an illusion" which would amount to an extreme of negation. Prajnaparamita is beyond the four extremes. A view of emptiness, i.e. "stuck in emptiness", is impossible in Prajnaparamita.
On the other hand there is nothing constructed as "true" or "truth" or "truly existing" again because it is beyond the four extremes and thus "illusion-like".
So in reality there is no progress but that does not negate illusion-like progress. and if you simply try to "transcend" then are you sure you succeed and if you succeed do you succeed completely or partially, irreversibly or only temporarily? If you simply negate then you're far from Prajnaparamita.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:15 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:07 am
Also consciousness is the leading culprit of construction followed by other skandhas.
Fabricating such theories reveals that you don't know what it means to not apprehend the aggregates.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:20 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:13 am
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "illusion-like"? It is a simile. It is not saying "this is an illusion" which would amount to an extreme of negation. Prajnaparamita is beyond the four extremes. A view of emptiness, i.e. "stuck in emptiness", is impossible in Prajnaparamita.
On the other hand there is nothing constructed as "true" or "truth" or "truly existing" again because it is beyond the four extremes and thus "illusion-like".
So in reality there is no progress but that does not negate illusion-like progress. and if you simply try to "transcend" then are you sure you succeed and if you succeed do you succeed completely or partially, irreversibly or only temporarily? If you simply negate then you're far from Prajnaparamita.
What do you mean!? A lot of people define nature is this is that but do they know/stand witness to exactly what it is? Since you are selfing, I challenge you to give a more accurate witness to this non-differentiating wisdom?
Make personal vows.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:22 am

SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:15 am
LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:07 am
Also consciousness is the leading culprit of construction followed by other skandhas.
Fabricating such theories reveals that you don't know what it means to not apprehend the aggregates.
The only time when you fabricate anything is when you are not aware that your skandhas are doing it.
Make personal vows.

SteRo
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by SteRo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:24 am

LastLegend wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:20 am
SteRo wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:13 am
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "illusion-like"? It is a simile. It is not saying "this is an illusion" which would amount to an extreme of negation. Prajnaparamita is beyond the four extremes. A view of emptiness, i.e. "stuck in emptiness", is impossible in Prajnaparamita.
On the other hand there is nothing constructed as "true" or "truth" or "truly existing" again because it is beyond the four extremes and thus "illusion-like".
So in reality there is no progress but that does not negate illusion-like progress. and if you simply try to "transcend" then are you sure you succeed and if you succeed do you succeed completely or partially, irreversibly or only temporarily? If you simply negate then you're far from Prajnaparamita.
What do you mean!? A lot of people define nature is this is that but do they know/stand witness to exactly what it is? Since you are selfing, I challenge you to give a more accurate witness to this non-differentiating wisdom?
If, O Lord, a Bodhisattva, who is unskilled in means, coursing in perfect wisdom courses in form, etc. [feeling, perception/discrimination, formations, consciousness], or in any idea about form, etc. being permanent or impermanent, etc., then he courses, in a sign, and not in perfect wisdom. If a Bodhisattva, who is unskilled in means, coursing in perfect wisdom thinks that "I course in perfect wisdom", then he courses in a basis, then he courses in a sign; and likewise when it occurs to him that "he who courses thus, courses in perfect wisdom and develops it". This should be known as a Bodhisattva's lack of skill in means.*

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 3743
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Does meditating on emptiness directly lead to compassion?

Post by LastLegend » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:27 am

Also the 4 extremes just mean not using your distinction/consciousness between ie existence and non-existence in order to grasp further you must first make a distinction between the two.
Make personal vows.

Post Reply

Return to “Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests