The hearer and the sound?

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
tkp67
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:11 am

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:01 am
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:49 am
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:34 am


Not yet.
I was trying to think of a state of mind disconnected from the senses that would show how the mind presents itself to itself

we sleep eyes closed yet in our dreams we still see

we sleep in quiet yet in our dreams our ears still hear
What presents in dreams are appearances of mind. Mind/nature would be subtly clear without duality/discrimination of consciousness.
yes so the hearer and the sound is the mind

the ear cannot discriminate, it does not know duality

Knowing that subtle clarity exists is very profound, it doesn't seem to have much self in it does it?

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am

tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:11 am
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:01 am
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:49 am


I was trying to think of a state of mind disconnected from the senses that would show how the mind presents itself to itself

we sleep eyes closed yet in our dreams we still see

we sleep in quiet yet in our dreams our ears still hear
What presents in dreams are appearances of mind. Mind/nature would be subtly clear without duality/discrimination of consciousness.
yes so the hearer and the sound is the mind

the ear cannot discriminate, it does not know duality

Knowing that subtle clarity exists is very profound, it doesn't seem to have much self in it does it?
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
Make personal vows.

tkp67
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:07 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:11 am
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:01 am


What presents in dreams are appearances of mind. Mind/nature would be subtly clear without duality/discrimination of consciousness.
yes so the hearer and the sound is the mind

the ear cannot discriminate, it does not know duality

Knowing that subtle clarity exists is very profound, it doesn't seem to have much self in it does it?
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
Sure if you look at it in thought, how does it appear in the mind while in the state of subtle clarity? If it is a state without duality/discrimination how can one discriminate while in it?

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Queequeg
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:28 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
I'm not sure discrimination is the problem, but rather attachment to discriminated appearances. The Buddha draws distinctions and disriminates dharma in order to teach beings... Buddha is not afflicted with notions of self...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm

tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:07 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:11 am


yes so the hearer and the sound is the mind

the ear cannot discriminate, it does not know duality

Knowing that subtle clarity exists is very profound, it doesn't seem to have much self in it does it?
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
Sure if you look at it in thought, how does it appear in the mind while in the state of subtle clarity? If it is a state without duality/discrimination how can one discriminate while in it?
Sure if we are no longer deluded by linked habits in dreams or in everyday life, discrimination will be discriminating wisdom-the child wisdom of nature. Also, even in subtlety there are traces of discrimination arising and self chattering. Practicing dissolving them to clarity/empty space or converting to bliss and send to all sentient beings of all realms.
Make personal vows.

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:28 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
I'm not sure discrimination is the problem, but rather attachment to discriminated appearances. The Buddha draws distinctions and disriminates dharma in order to teach beings... Buddha is not afflicted with notions of self...
Attachment or discrimination or self is a loaded term. Function of consciousness is to make distinction but not simple distinction of a table versus a chair but it followed by a series of responses from aggregates that involve suffering and delusion; that’s discrimination.
Last edited by LastLegend on Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Make personal vows.

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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:49 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:07 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am


Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
Sure if you look at it in thought, how does it appear in the mind while in the state of subtle clarity? If it is a state without duality/discrimination how can one discriminate while in it?
Sure if we are no longer deluded by linked habits in dreams or in everyday life, discrimination will be discriminating wisdom-the child wisdom of nature. Also, even in subtlety there are traces of discrimination arising and self chattering. Practicing dissolving them to clarity/empty space or converting to bliss and send to all sentient beings of all realms.
That child born wisdom has no self to discriminate from which is why is seems childlike. When we are born are minds form self moment by moment as a facet of existence. The mind you reference is unfettered by self because it hasn't formed yet.

I really appreciate your perspective of the processes involved which I find quite illuminating, thank you for being so open with this dialog.

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:07 pm

tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:49 pm
That child born wisdom has no self to discriminate from which is why is seems childlike.
Child born wisdom is reborn fresh with no self from its mother/nature which you said unfettered.
When we are born are minds form self moment by moment as a facet of existence. The mind you reference is unfettered by self because it hasn't formed yet.
I really appreciate your perspective of the processes involved which I find quite illuminating, thank you for being so open with this dialog.
Still learning and struggling like everyone else but thanks.
Make personal vows.

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Queequeg
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by Queequeg » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:46 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:28 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am
Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
I'm not sure discrimination is the problem, but rather attachment to discriminated appearances. The Buddha draws distinctions and disriminates dharma in order to teach beings... Buddha is not afflicted with notions of self...
Attachment or discrimination or self is a loaded term. Function of consciousness is to make distinction but not simple distinction of a table versus a chair but it followed by a series of responses from aggregates that involve suffering and delusion; that’s discrimination.
You make awakening sound like a non-discriminating stupor.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

tkp67
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:48 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:07 pm
Still learning and struggling like everyone else but thanks.


I feel engaging compassion in the discourse of personal buddhist perspective allows us to enjoy moments of interconnection without the same influence of outflows allowing us to subliminal if not only momentarily realize what we seek.
Last edited by tkp67 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:52 pm

LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:07 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:31 am


Lol as long as there is discrimination that’s self.
Sure if you look at it in thought, how does it appear in the mind while in the state of subtle clarity? If it is a state without duality/discrimination how can one discriminate while in it?
Sure if we are no longer deluded by linked habits in dreams or in everyday life, discrimination will be discriminating wisdom-the child wisdom of nature. Also, even in subtlety there are traces of discrimination arising and self chattering. Practicing dissolving them to clarity/empty space or converting to bliss and send to all sentient beings of all realms.
I think this is basically correct. Until we achieving the "turning about of consciousness" mentioned in (for example) the Lankavatara, there is no way that discrimination is anything other than delusion, from the side of enlightenment though, it becomes discriminating wisdom. It also depends on how much you buy into chronology, certainly we can catch a glimpse.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tkp67
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:52 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:07 pm


Sure if you look at it in thought, how does it appear in the mind while in the state of subtle clarity? If it is a state without duality/discrimination how can one discriminate while in it?
Sure if we are no longer deluded by linked habits in dreams or in everyday life, discrimination will be discriminating wisdom-the child wisdom of nature. Also, even in subtlety there are traces of discrimination arising and self chattering. Practicing dissolving them to clarity/empty space or converting to bliss and send to all sentient beings of all realms.
I think this is basically correct. Until we achieving the "turning about of consciousness" mentioned in (for example) the Lankavatara, there is no way that discrimination is anything other than delusion, from the side of enlightenment though, it becomes discriminating wisdom. It also depends on how much you buy into chronology, certainly we can catch a glimpse.
Is it discriminating wisdom? or is wisdom the result of clear minded observation?

I say this because it seems we don't choose how we view reality without any influence of self so how is the wisdom derived from that view discriminating as it is observed while the mind is not actively discriminating?

Could it be in the attempt to validate the wisdom gleaned trying to articulate it FOR THAT PURPOSE brings rise to self convoluting the view again?

When we access for the selfless purpose of helping others does it remain intact?

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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 pm

tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:52 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:41 pm


Sure if we are no longer deluded by linked habits in dreams or in everyday life, discrimination will be discriminating wisdom-the child wisdom of nature. Also, even in subtlety there are traces of discrimination arising and self chattering. Practicing dissolving them to clarity/empty space or converting to bliss and send to all sentient beings of all realms.
I think this is basically correct. Until we achieving the "turning about of consciousness" mentioned in (for example) the Lankavatara, there is no way that discrimination is anything other than delusion, from the side of enlightenment though, it becomes discriminating wisdom. It also depends on how much you buy into chronology, certainly we can catch a glimpse.
Is it discriminating wisdom? or is wisdom the result of clear minded observation?

I say this because it seems we don't choose how we view reality without any influence of self so how is the wisdom derived from that view discriminating as it is observed while the mind is not actively discriminating?

Could it be in the attempt to validate the wisdom gleaned trying to articulate it FOR THAT PURPOSE brings rise to self convoluting the view again?

When we access for the selfless purpose of helping others does it remain intact?
No idea what you're asking. I'm just talking about how enlightenment is explained in the Lankavatara, Uttaratantra etc. in relation to Lastlegend's statement.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

tkp67
Posts: 1167
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by tkp67 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:13 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:02 pm
tkp67 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:52 pm


I think this is basically correct. Until we achieving the "turning about of consciousness" mentioned in (for example) the Lankavatara, there is no way that discrimination is anything other than delusion, from the side of enlightenment though, it becomes discriminating wisdom. It also depends on how much you buy into chronology, certainly we can catch a glimpse.
Is it discriminating wisdom? or is wisdom the result of clear minded observation?

I say this because it seems we don't choose how we view reality without any influence of self so how is the wisdom derived from that view discriminating as it is observed while the mind is not actively discriminating?

Could it be in the attempt to validate the wisdom gleaned trying to articulate it FOR THAT PURPOSE brings rise to self convoluting the view again?

When we access for the selfless purpose of helping others does it remain intact?
No idea what you're asking. I'm just talking about how enlightenment is explained in the Lankavatara, Uttaratantra etc. in relation to Lastlegend's statement.
My apologies Johnny let me state it as a simple confident statement but I loathe to do so because it is a statement that needs to be evaluated and don't want to be seen as arrogant.

When the mind is free of self there is no self to discriminate. there is only a view lacking self which is the place in which true wisdom is revealed.

Whenever I enter this place and observe wisdom and try to display it for my own actualization people interpret me as insane (and rightly so but I will avoid the tangent of explaining) but if I simply let it be when there is a time when it has purpose which is in aiding the liberation of others it seems to posses the same value I came away with after observing it myself.

That actualization can't be forced.

Along that note and while tangential it is meant as a thank you and apology. You gave me great insight into how my verbiage is perceived internally. I had to really search why.

It boils down to most of my understanding of all of this being done in relative isolation. I out of instinct try to lead people to my own conclusions as my mind came to them because I do not want to manipulate meaning out of people.

Manipulative nature is a part of my being I worked hard to avoid because of the bad karma. The materialistic world I grew up in rationalizes in a way that condemns them to samsara (lying to make a sale for example).

I am working to make a great effort at being direct and using minimal words but I am so very fearful of being seen as arrogant. I know this is entirely on me but I thought the frustrations I brought out in others should be understood as completely unintentional and a consequence of breaking free of the behaviors that keep us in samsara.

That apology is most heartfelt to those I frustrated the most. I defended my point of view because it had been right on the path but not when discussing it. To the later this community is the first place I have had to really do so. I lacked the predicate wisdom and compassion to recognize this. I hope this at least reveals my intent as unintentional regardless of ignorance. :anjali:

Thank you for helping me understand this. :anjali:

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:12 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:46 pm
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:28 pm


I'm not sure discrimination is the problem, but rather attachment to discriminated appearances. The Buddha draws distinctions and disriminates dharma in order to teach beings... Buddha is not afflicted with notions of self...
Attachment or discrimination or self is a loaded term. Function of consciousness is to make distinction but not simple distinction of a table versus a chair but it followed by a series of responses from aggregates that involve suffering and delusion; that’s discrimination.
You make awakening sound like a non-discriminating stupor.
How do I train like that without arising discrimination?
Make personal vows.

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Rick
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by Rick » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:48 pm

Speaking of stupor:

"In mindfulness practice there is no goal, no journey; you are just mindful of what is happening there. There is no promise of love and light or visions of any kind — no angels, no devils. Nothing happens: it is absolutely boring."

Chogyam Trungpa
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:03 pm

Rick wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:48 pm
Speaking of stupor:

"In mindfulness practice there is no goal, no journey; you are just mindful of what is happening there. There is no promise of love and light or visions of any kind — no angels, no devils. Nothing happens: it is absolutely boring."

Chogyam Trungpa
Is it boring? What happens to subtle bliss man?
Make personal vows.

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seeker242
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by seeker242 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:03 pm

Why make hearer, sound, one and not-one? Why not just "woof woof" when a dog barks and that's it?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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LastLegend
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:50 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:03 pm
Why make hearer, sound, one and not-one? Why not just "woof woof" when a dog barks and that's it?
I was asked how to become the barking?
Make personal vows.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: The hearer and the sound?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:17 am

What we, meaning awareness experiences as sound ( which is, after all, a concept)
is air molecules vibrating the ear drum, and that vibration becoming an electric signal in the brain.
The air molecules aren't the sound.
The ear drum isn't the sound.
The vibration isn't the sound.
The electricity in the neuro-pathways isn't the sound.
Awareness (mind) experiences all those things together as something it calls "sound" rather than say, aroma.


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