Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Toenail wrote:Illegal Immigration has to stop.
No it doesn't. Western powers meddling in other countries affairs has to stop.
People from active warzones should be granted asylum and go back after the conflicts are relatively pacified,
You have no idea what asylum entails and what are the criteria for receiving asylum. Coming from a war zone is not a necessary criteria for asylum.
...but economic migrants cannot be accepted.
Yes they should. We suck their country dry, so it is our responsibility to accept and support them.
Economic migration destroys their home countries much faster without any sort of hope and it is a burden on europe.
Europe (and the West in general) is the burden that these people carry. We are the burden, not them.
African problems have to be solved by Africans.
Ever heard about the negative effects in African nations of colonisation? Any idea about what the West had created in Northern Africa? Obviously not.
Development aid is obviously not working and should be stopped immediately.
No, development aid is working and should not be stopped.
Giving aid and hope to people is actually elevating the problem, luring millions to the west...
Come to Greece and see how much aid and hope exists in the refugee camps. Even if a person does gain asylum they are still condemned to a lifetime of living hand to mouth on state handouts or cleaning white people's toliets.
...leaving their home countries as rotten corpses without young working people.
WTF are you talking about.
And I say it again: Under the pretense of compassion much thoughtless harm is being done.
Under the pretense of speaking logically you are talking complete and utter (unsubstantiated) crap.
That pretty much nails it.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Toenail » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:29 pm

No it doesn't. Western powers meddling in other countries affairs has to stop.
I agree.
Yes they should. We suck their country dry, so it is our responsibility to accept and support them.
Ever heard about the negative effects in African nations of colonisation? Any idea about what the West had created in Northern Africa? Obviously not.
Please tell me how we suck their countries dry. Poverty in african countries is 100% the result of civil war and corrupt local governments. The west doesn't have shit to do with it. Fun fact: Namibia is an ex-colony of germany and is one of the better off african countries.
Europe (and the West in general) is the burden that these people carry. We are the burden, not them.
Typical leftist mentality. Do you really hate yourself that much to believe this?
No, development aid is working and should not be stopped.
Development aid is not working. It is basically a finance shot for corrupt african warlords etc. Tell me how much of that money reaches the people, it is laughable. If it was working, why are there all these economic refugees?
...leaving their home countries as rotten corpses without young working people.
WTF are you talking about.
In the long-run, large amounts of immigration will weaken the home country even further by decreasing the population, the level of production, and economic spending. Thus, migration can never make the situation in Africa better, it will only make it worse. This means that in order to make a change, the situation in Africa has to be changed. This is not possible through foreign intervention, as you yourself seem to think, too, by saying we should stay out of other country's affairs. Developmental aid is a joke to be honest.

Chapter 3: http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Ma ... -en#page54


Come to Greece and see how much aid and hope exists in the refugee camps. Even if a person does gain asylum they are still condemned to a lifetime of living hand to mouth on state handouts or cleaning white people's toliets.
Well, this is how capitalism works. You provide something that people need and they will pay you for it. If you can only provide cleaning toilets, you will have to clean toilets. Of course, it is not really fair when some people had the fortune to receive education and be born in the west, but at the same time I do not think it has anything to do with race, as you are trying to fabricate it. At least in Germany we have many programs, free german language classes etc. Basically they get 3 years to learn german (for free), 2 years in a special class to get the 'Hauptschul-degree' (for free) and even after that they are not really employable in regular jobs etc. It's not their fault, it is just reality.

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Grigoris » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:51 pm

Toenail wrote:Please tell me how we suck their countries dry.
Cocoa, diamonds, minerals, metals, oil, farm produce, etc...
Poverty in african countries is 100% the result of civil war and corrupt local governments. The west doesn't have shit to do with it. Fun fact: Namibia is an ex-colony of germany and is one of the better off african countries.
Yes, the fact that they kicked out the Germans and then the Fascist South African state, so that they now that they control their own resources through a multi-party democracy, means they are now well off. NOT because they were colonised, but because they are free of colonisation.
Typical leftist mentality. Do you really hate yourself that much to believe this?
And yours is a typical far-right mentality: believing that being aware of an uncomfortable reality, means hating oneself.
Development aid is not working. It is basically a finance shot for corrupt african warlords etc. Tell me how much of that money reaches the people, it is laughable. If it was working, why are there all these economic refugees?
Who gives the money to the warlords instead of the people you numbskull? Development aid works just fine when it reaches those that actually need to benefit from it instead of using it to prop up regimes.
In the long-run, large amounts of immigration will weaken the home country even further by decreasing the population, the level of production, and economic spending. Thus, migration can never make the situation in Africa better, it will only make it worse. This means that in order to make a change, the situation in Africa has to be changed. This is not possible through foreign intervention, as you yourself seem to think, too, by saying we should stay out of other country's affairs. Developmental aid is a joke to be honest.

Chapter 3: http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Ma ... -en#page54
1. Many of the countries these people are running from have the largest growing populations in the world. 2. Economic immigration benefits the home country because economic immigrants generally send back stable foreign currency to their home countries in order to support family members left behind. 3. The influx of foreign currency increases domestic spending.
Well, this is how capitalism works. You provide something that people need and they will pay you for it. If you can only provide cleaning toilets, you will have to clean toilets. Of course, it is not really fair when some people had the fortune to receive education and be born in the west, but at the same time I do not think it has anything to do with race, as you are trying to fabricate it. At least in Germany we have many programs, free german language classes etc. Basically they get 3 years to learn german (for free), 2 years in a special class to get the 'Hauptschul-degree' (for free) and even after that they are not really employable in regular jobs etc. It's not their fault, it is just reality.
I am not trying to fabricate anything, you are the one that brought up the idea of "race". I was referring to the fact that once in a country of refuge, the chances that a refugee will have the opportunity to receive a higher education, especially given their need to work in order to survive, is basically zero. The children of refugees, on the other hand... But if you want to push it in the direction of racism... If you have two similarly qualified people applying for the same job, one is German and the other is a refugee, are you so sure that the employer will not take the "race"of the applicant into account? Somehow I find that VERY hard to believe.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Fa Dao » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:01 pm

Perhaps it might be a good idea to hear a muslims opinion that is there in Greece?
http://www.meforum.org/6917/what-on-a-m ... fugee-mind
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Grigoris » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:13 pm

How strange to find an anti-refugee article on the site Middle East Forum whose banner reads: Promoting American Interests.

And the article writer is a pro-Erdogan Turk. Not exactly the right person to comment on the plight of Iraqis, Syrians, Kurds and Afghans (for example), especially given the treatment that these groups encounter in Turkey: beaten, jailed under subhuman conditions, forced prostitution and sex slavery, ripped off by smugglers, used as drug mules, ENSLAVED in the textiles industry, taken advantage of in any manner possible.

You do know that Erdogan took a cool 3 billion euro from the EU in order to trap and repel his fellow Muslims and to wage a war in Syria?

Anyway, just because somebody claims they are a Muslim, does not mean they represent the views of all Muslims.

The article is (originally) sourced from the organisation BESA,

Their mission statement:
Mission

The Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies (also known by its acronym, the BESA Center) is an independent, non-partisan think tank conducting policy-relevant research on Middle Eastern and global strategic affairs, particularly as they relate to the national security and foreign policy of Israel and regional peace and stability.

BESA Center publications and policy recommendations are directed towards senior Israeli decision-makers in military and civilian life, the defense and foreign affairs establishments in Israel and abroad, the diplomatic corps, the press, the academic community, leaders of Jewish communities around the world, and the educated public.

The center sponsors conferences, lectures, and briefings for international and local audiences, bringing together leading experts from academia and public life from both Israel and abroad. The center has developed cooperative relations with leading strategic research institutes throughout the world, from Ankara to Washington and from London to Seoul. The Center conducts specialized research on contract to the Israeli foreign affairs and defense establishment, and for NATO.
:rolleye:

It pays to check one's source's before claiming they are representative and factual.

Unless, of course, your motivation is deliberately confuse people and skew the discussion.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Grigoris » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:23 pm

As for this:
Those friends are mostly romantic European social workers who, I observed several times, sport t-shirts, bags, and laptops festooned with the Palestinian flag. They are on the island to help the unfortunate Muslim refugees who are fleeing war in their native countries.
It is true, many of the people that came to "help" were starry eyed idiots, but it was these idiots that plunged into the frozen sea (sometimes risking their lives) to rescue refugees on sub-standard sinking dinghies wearing life jackets stuffed with newspaper (which had been sold to them for proper buoyant vests) after giving $1000 a head to their fellow Turkish Muslims.

And you know what? It wasn't all liberal white crusaders, there were plenty of Islamic charities and organisations helping out on the island, when some 2000 people a day were arriving. We were completely swamped and overrun here and it was idiots like these that helped not only the refugees, but us the locals.

What did you do to help your fellow sentient beings during Europe's worst humanitarian crisis since WWII, Fa Dao? Same thing as our German friend Toenail I imagine: Frak all!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:38 pm

.

Well said, / well done.
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:49 pm

Basically, to understand how important it is to care for beings, two things help very much. One is to be clear of all impediments to seeing clearly, that all beings are connected;

Kindness towards one, towards any, is kindness towards all. And kindness -- not in a sense of separateness, but from a natural, spontaneous, ad automatic compassion.

To quote Bodhipaksa,

'A well-known Buddhist teaching explains that all (or at least most) beings have, at one time or another in the inconceivable past, been close family members:'

and the Meta Sutta:

From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration [saṃsāra]. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on [literally “saṃsāra-ing”]. A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find… A being who has not been your father… your brother… your sister… your son… your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

http://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-practi ... all-beings

So to see them as your mother, in a previous life, or this life -- this helps to understand --


Two things help very much -- One is being clear of impediments, and with this also, understanding beings -- the other is having loving-kindness, --

Or, as Thay writes, the energy of love.

With mindfulness, this helps to bring about health, and all other good.

https://theendlessfurther.com/seeing-al ... ur-mother/

With peace and love.

:buddha2:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 am

Grigoris wrote:As for this:
Those friends are mostly romantic European social workers who, I observed several times, sport t-shirts, bags, and laptops festooned with the Palestinian flag. They are on the island to help the unfortunate Muslim refugees who are fleeing war in their native countries.
It is true, many of the people that came to "help" were starry eyed idiots, but it was these idiots that plunged into the frozen sea (sometimes risking their lives) to rescue refugees on sub-standard sinking dinghies wearing life jackets stuffed with newspaper (which had been sold to them for proper buoyant vests) after giving $1000 a head to their fellow Turkish Muslims.

And you know what? It wasn't all liberal white crusaders, there were plenty of Islamic charities and organisations helping out on the island, when some 2000 people a day were arriving. We were completely swamped and overrun here and it was idiots like these that helped not only the refugees, but us the locals.

What did you do to help your fellow sentient beings during Europe's worst humanitarian crisis since WWII, Fa Dao? Same thing as our German friend Toenail I imagine: Frak all!
Im not European..(2nd gen Irish living in the US) but hey greggy, you want to commit cultural suicide by bringing in what are proven to be predominantly economic migrants, not refugees, in numbers than cant possibly be assimilated into western society, be my guest...let me know how thats going for you in say 10 to 20 years from now.....the point of the article however was to show just how clueless most westerners are to just how complicated things are in the ME...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by drodul » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:04 am

There's nothing like bodhicitta, right? :namaste:

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:13 am

Hihi drodul :heart:

Your brother, and friend.

:buddha1:
Last edited by joy&peace on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:13 am

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Reasons:

1. People are valuable, have worth.

Buddha-nature is immeasurable value.

People have this value as well.

2. They are our mothers from previous lives -- or, not-different from us, in this life.

That is, there is no other.

3. Ecology is important -- not economy.

To sacrifice the former for the latter is a great mistake.


Of immeasurably more value is life.

--

I am American too, but I do not drive a car; I do not eat meat (almost never have), and many other things.


4. Reasoning based on economy are not valid :


The standard of living has led to significant ecological problems, and is not sustainable.


A simpler, more sound and ecologically - friendly type of living is not just possible, it is necessary.


Not just necessary, it is normal.

Not just normal, it is easy, with the right kind of mindset -- and dedication.


With much metta, love and peace.

:buddha2:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:28 am

Fa Dao wrote:Im not European..(2nd gen Irish living in the US)
So you are a European living in the US.
but hey greggy, you want to commit cultural suicide by bringing in what are proven to be predominantly economic migrants...
Bzzzzzzttt... Complete and utter BS! But then again, you are getting your statistics from StormFront, right?

The official EU statistics for 2016 show:

Syrians 26,630
Iraqis 4,770
Afghanis 4,295
Pakistanis (I include these because a large proportion are Afghani refugees from Pakistan and because the US propped up a military dictatorship there and used it as a training ground for Mujaheddin and then Taliban forces) 4,420

and then

Albanians 1,300
Others 8,460

That means that 80.4% of people arriving in Greece are from conflict zones.

But this statistic does not include Africans from South Sudan, Nigeria, Congo, etc... that are included in the category "Other". It also does not include Pakistanis and Hindis from Kasmir. It also does not include Bangladeshi Rohingya. It also does not include...
...not refugees, in numbers than cant possibly be assimilated into western society, be my guest...let me know how thats going for you in say 10 to 20 years from now.....
Complete and utter hogwash. Greece survived 500 years of Ottoman occupation, I think it can deal with 40,000 refugees. Hell, the American Indians have survived 500 years of white nonsense...
the point of the article however was to show just how clueless most westerners are to just how complicated things are in the ME...
No, the article was a pro-Erdogan propaganda piece designed to placate dumb white assholes who want to convince themselves that Turkey is a safe country for refugees (and to trap them there, instead of allowing them to gain refuge in the EU), to justify giving Erdogan 3 billion euro to wage war against his own citizens (both Turkish supporters of Gulen and Kurds living in Kurdish areas of Turkey) and to launch an attack into Syria. Looks like you swallowed it hook, line and sinker. And since when was anecdotal evidence a basis for foreign policy?
Last edited by Grigoris on Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by tiagolps » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:33 am

Fa Dao wrote: Im not European..(2nd gen Irish living in the US)...
Doesn't that mean your parents where economic migrants as well?
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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Im not European..(2nd gen Irish living in the US)
So you are a European living in the US.
but hey greggy, you want to commit cultural suicide by bringing in what are proven to be predominantly economic migrants...
Bzzzzzzttt... Complete and utter BS! But then again, you are getting your statistics from StormFront, right?

The official EU statistics for 2016 show:

Syrians 26,630
Iraqis 4,770
Afghanis 4,295
Pakistanis (I include these because a large proportion are Afghani refugees from Pakistan and because the US propped up a military dictatorship there and used it as a training ground for Mujaheddin and then Taliban forces) 4,420

and then

Albanians 1,300
Others 8,460

That means that 80.4% of people arriving in Greece are from conflict zones.



But this statistic does not include Africans from South Sudan, Nigeria, Congo, etc... that are included in the category "Other". It also does not include Pakistanis and Hindis from Kasmir. It also does not include Bangladeshi Rohingya. It also does not include...
...not refugees, in numbers than cant possibly be assimilated into western society, be my guest...let me know how thats going for you in say 10 to 20 years from now.....
Complete and utter hogwash. Greece survived 500 years of Ottoman occupation, I think it can deal with 40,000 refugees. Hell, the American Indians have survived 500 years of white nonsense...
the point of the article however was to show just how clueless most westerners are to just how complicated things are in the ME...
No, the article was a pro-Erdogan propaganda piece designed to placate dumb white assholes who want to convince themselves that Turkey is a safe country for refugees (and to trap them there, instead of allowing them to gain refuge in the EU), to justify giving Erdogan 3 billion euro to wage war against his own citizens (both Turkish supporters of Gulen and Kurds living in Kurdish areas of Turkey) and to launch an attack into Syria. Looks like you swallowed it hook, line and sinker. And since when was anecdotal evidence a basis for foreign policy?
Sources? and like i said, get back to me in 10 years and lets see how the assimilation is going...seems to be going so well in the UK, France, Germany and Sweden
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:19 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Sources?
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... statistics

What are your sources?
...and like i said, get back to me in 10 years and lets see how the assimilation is going...seems to be going so well in the UK, France, Germany and Sweden
I already answered to this BS.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:21 pm

Fa Dao wrote:get back to me in 10 years and lets see how the assimilation is going...seems to be going so well in the UK, France, Germany and Sweden
If assimilation is not going so well it is because there is little attempt to assimilate refugees and immigrants, thank goodness. What is needed is not assimilation but integration:

http://sites.cardiff.ac.uk/islamukcentr ... tegration/

And integration is going rather surprisingly well in Europe, with the vast majority of newcomers succeeding in "maintaining identity and belief while being able to celebrate differences and work with others in civic society" -- in spite of the efforts of both the Islamophobic far-right and such Islamist terrorist organisations as the Daesh to subvert the process.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 pm

Excellent, and great post, tree.

Thank you.

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:50 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Grigoris wrote:As for this:
Those friends are mostly romantic European social workers who, I observed several times, sport t-shirts, bags, and laptops festooned with the Palestinian flag. They are on the island to help the unfortunate Muslim refugees who are fleeing war in their native countries.
It is true, many of the people that came to "help" were starry eyed idiots, but it was these idiots that plunged into the frozen sea (sometimes risking their lives) to rescue refugees on sub-standard sinking dinghies wearing life jackets stuffed with newspaper (which had been sold to them for proper buoyant vests) after giving $1000 a head to their fellow Turkish Muslims.

And you know what? It wasn't all liberal white crusaders, there were plenty of Islamic charities and organisations helping out on the island, when some 2000 people a day were arriving. We were completely swamped and overrun here and it was idiots like these that helped not only the refugees, but us the locals.

What did you do to help your fellow sentient beings during Europe's worst humanitarian crisis since WWII, Fa Dao? Same thing as our German friend Toenail I imagine: Frak all!
Im not European..(2nd gen Irish living in the US) but hey greggy, you want to commit cultural suicide by bringing in what are proven to be predominantly economic migrants, not refugees, in numbers than cant possibly be assimilated into western society, be my guest...let me know how thats going for you in say 10 to 20 years from now.....the point of the article however was to show just how clueless most westerners are to just how complicated things are in the ME...
FD it was economic migrants that fueled the industrial revolution in the usa. We wouldn't be as we are if not for EM.

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Re: Middle Eastern & African refugees on Lesbos

Post by joy&peace » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:16 pm

Great / good post.

Whether overall the said revolution was a good thing is another question. . . entirely.

But also a certainly unanswerable, overall, all things involved.

As well as not relevant since we already had it..

An interesting -- off-shoot and side question, how much of computer and other technology would be dependent on the revolution...

Certainly phones and so forth, and very much came from space technology. . .

In any case, mostly tangential -- for the case of human rights;

Very good post.

Thank you.

:buddha1:
Om Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate bodhi svaha

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