THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

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Queequeg
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:12 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:03 pm
had a huge lapse into the the party scene in the 80's..like breaking the candle into four and burning it at four ends...
Circa 1983:

"Where's the party at?"
"Well, where's Dave at?" :D
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:12 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:03 pm
had a huge lapse into the the party scene in the 80's..like breaking the candle into four and burning it at four ends...
Circa 1983:

"Where's the party at?"
"Well, where's Dave at?" :D
Dave's not here


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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:10 pm

Its me, Dave, come on man, open up!

LOL
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:30 pm

THIS THREAD SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, DZOGCHUNGPA DISCOVERS
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:57 pm

screw it then, I'm going to eat this nonexistent bag of chips

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:38 pm

'"What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." ~ Woody Allen.

Actually, I think a more serious response to such discoveries is that perhaps the reason that the physical analysis of the cosmos ('physical' being 'the universe studied by physics') shows that it is actually unintelligible, i.e. it literally doesn't make sense or add up (which should not come as a surprise to anyone who has studied Nagarjuna!)

I have floated such ideas on Philosophy Forum a few times, to predictable outrage. 'Hey it's only because of SCIENCE that we even KNOW that dark matter EXISTS!!'. But the point is, we don't know that it exists. What is known is that 'something not understood by science is holding galaxies together' - and, as the predominant view of the physical sciences is that matter (or matter-energy) is all that is real, then it MUST be matter - what else could it be? Likewise for the force that is apparently driving the expansion of the Universe, dubbed 'dark energy' - nobody knows what it is, but what could it be, other than energy? Together, dark matter and energy are now said to account for more than 96% of all that scientists are able to measure - meaning that the vast universe that has been revealed by modern physical cosmology, only comprises 4% of what is thought to exist (described in this book).

Have a listen to this talk. Harry Cliff is employed at the LHC:

[media]https://www.ted.com/talks/harry_cliff_h ... edcomshare[/media]


He makes the same point in Could the Higgs Nobel be the End of Physics?

Both these were now published around 5 years ago, but nothing substantial has changed since.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by DGA » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:41 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:38 pm

Actually, I think a more serious response to such discoveries is that perhaps the reason that the physical analysis of the cosmos ('physical' being 'the universe studied by physics') shows that it is actually unintelligible, i.e. it literally doesn't make sense or add up (which should not come as a surprise to anyone who has studied Nagarjuna!)
I don't follow theoretical physics at all, but the above statement is in accord with my own understanding. Once upon a time I read Brook Ziproyn's study of Tientai thought, Being and Ambiguity, and it made sense to me. In hindsight, I think I misunderstood it in important respects. The language of coherence and incoherence is relevant, though. Enjoy! (?)

https://books.google.com/books?id=dq66C ... yn&f=false

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:28 am

if you think about, the whole point of philosophical naturalism is that nature is svabhava, self-originated. That is what I suspect is going to have to be let go of.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Minobu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:55 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:57 pm
screw it then, I'm going to eat this nonexistent bag of chips
doesn't really steal bag of chips...
and yet


MMMMMM yummy...

Buddhists don't steal...

MMMMMMM yummy


there is no MMMMMM yummy

Crumples Bag.....looks for more...

no you didn't

did too

did not

did too

did not

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:32 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:38 pm
'"What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet." ~ Woody Allen.

Actually, I think a more serious response to such discoveries is that perhaps the reason that the physical analysis of the cosmos ('physical' being 'the universe studied by physics') shows that it is actually unintelligible, i.e. it literally doesn't make sense or add up (which should not come as a surprise to anyone who has studied Nagarjuna!)

I have floated such ideas on Philosophy Forum a few times, to predictable outrage. 'Hey it's only because of SCIENCE that we even KNOW that dark matter EXISTS!!'. But the point is, we don't know that it exists. What is known is that 'something not understood by science is holding galaxies together' - and, as the predominant view of the physical sciences is that matter (or matter-energy) is all that is real, then it MUST be matter - what else could it be? Likewise for the force that is apparently driving the expansion of the Universe, dubbed 'dark energy' - nobody knows what it is, but what could it be, other than energy? Together, dark matter and energy are now said to account for more than 96% of all that scientists are able to measure - meaning that the vast universe that has been revealed by modern physical cosmology, only comprises 4% of what is thought to exist (described in this book).
The problem, I suspect, is that people are focused on numbers that are certain. Its more likely that the secret to life will be found in irrational numbers. Just like Nagarjuna's analysis, there is always a remainder... no matter how far we carry out the calculation, the damn numbers keep going and going and going and going... Its not that these things are unintelligible - but rather, that the calculation never ends... Mandelbrot graphs, Golden Ratios, etc. etc. Actually, finite numbers are rather unintelligible if you really think about it... they are arbitrary distinctions that imply finality, which is beyond comprehension. Like DGA references - Local Coherence, Global Incoherence.

Never Ending Math Equation
Modest Mouse

I'm the same as I was when I was 6 years old
And oh my God I feel so damn old
I don't really feel anything
On a plane, I can see the tiny lights below
And oh my God, they look so alone
Do they really feel anything?
Oh my God, I've gotta gotta gotta gotta move on
Where do you move when what you're moving from
Is yourself?
The universe works on a math equation
that never even ever really ends in the end
Infinity spirals out creation
We're on the tip of its tongue, and it is saying
We ain't sure where you stand
You ain't machines and you ain't land
And the plants and the animals, they are linked
And the plants and the animals eat each other
Oh my God and oh my cat
I told my Dad what I need
Well I know what I have and want
But I don't know what I need
Well, he said he said he said he said
"Where we're going I'm dead."

“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:48 pm

The above comment is aside from the practical limits of experimental physics - this morning I read an article on visible size of the universe. We can only see 13 billion light years away because the universe is approximately 13 billion years old. But as far as we know, the universe extends infinitely...

With the Higgs Boson, we've hit the limit because we simply can't create the energies needed to go deeper.

So, we have practical limits on what we can experiment with... I don't think that is the end of physics, though. There is still a lot of stuff to figure out within those limits.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:43 pm

Queequeg wrote: I don't think that is the end of physics, though. There is still a lot of stuff to figure out within those limits.
You familiar with John Horgan's The End of Science? He's a journalist and blogger for Scientific American - I read his Cross Check blog from time to time. Anyway, his 1996 book of that title predicts that there are hard limits to science, and we may be up against them.
In The End of Science, John Horgan makes the case that the era of truly profound scientific revelations about the universe and our place in it is over. Interviewing scientific luminaries such as Stephen Hawking, Francis Crick, and Richard Dawkins, he demonstrates that all the big questions that can be answered have been answered, as science bumps up against fundamental limits. The world cannot give us a “theory of everything,” and modern endeavors such as string theory are “ironic” and “theological” in nature, not scientific, because they are impossible to confirm.
The book caused a big stir at the time but I think in the 20 years since, nothing has happened to overturn it.

IN fact, there's this battle going on over whether string theory and some of its weirder implications are really science at all. This was escalated by an OP in Nature, called Scientific Method: Defend the Integrity of Physics:
This year, debates in physics circles took a worrying turn. Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical. We disagree.
There's also a critical book by UK science writer called Farewell to Reality, which takes an educated but highly critical look at the further reaches of scientific speculation about the multiverse and various other scientifically-inspired metaphysical ideas.

In my opinion, it has all the hallmarks of what Buddhists call 'prapanca' - conceptual proliferation - but now armed with weapons of mass destruction.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:12 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:43 pm
Queequeg wrote: I don't think that is the end of physics, though. There is still a lot of stuff to figure out within those limits.
You familiar with John Horgan's The End of Science? He's a journalist and blogger for Scientific American - I read his Cross Check blog from time to time. Anyway, his 1996 book of that title predicts that there are hard limits to science, and we may be up against them.
In The End of Science, John Horgan makes the case that the era of truly profound scientific revelations about the universe and our place in it is over. Interviewing scientific luminaries such as Stephen Hawking, Francis Crick, and Richard Dawkins, he demonstrates that all the big questions that can be answered have been answered, as science bumps up against fundamental limits. The world cannot give us a “theory of everything,” and modern endeavors such as string theory are “ironic” and “theological” in nature, not scientific, because they are impossible to confirm.
The book caused a big stir at the time but I think in the 20 years since, nothing has happened to overturn it.
To the extent that science is limited to the scientific method - yeah, well, once you can't run experiments anymore because of material limitations, one can say science is at its end. But have not read this... I'll take a look.

This year, debates in physics circles took a worrying turn. Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical. We disagree.
There's also a critical book by UK science writer called Farewell to Reality, which takes an educated but highly critical look at the further reaches of scientific speculation about the multiverse and various other scientifically-inspired metaphysical ideas.

In my opinion, it has all the hallmarks of what Buddhists call 'prapanca' - conceptual proliferation - but now armed with weapons of mass destruction.
Well, physics without the experiments is... math. Maybe applied math. Maybe philosophy.

That last possibility is interesting to me - I'm waiting for Buddha Dharma to be translated into math.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:22 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:43 pm
John Horgan
OK, so now he's on my radar. Another thinker added to the list of people I'd like to get to know further.

I looked very briefly and he makes some big claims - I wonder how much of that is showmanship. If you want your books to move, you need a bold thesis to get the attention. It seems that, having concluded that science is at an end, his interest turned to the intersection of science and mysticism... That sounds like fun, though it also sounds like it could turn into a sloppy tour through the looking glass.

In the simplified version of his end of science thesis I get from a very quick google search, he might suffer from that problem Donald Rumsfeld famously identified - failing to account for unknown unknowns.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Dan74 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:08 pm

I think in every age, people thought everything important had been discovered already.

And yet around the edges, there is weirdness and unexplained little bits that suddenly lead to a paradigm change.

It is true that a lot of string theory assumptions cannot be tested and also that the sheer level of complexity in physics or maths has reached a level where no one is truly across all of it. It does seem that we are approaching boundaries of some kind.

But who know, perhaps our boundaries are about to be expanded as well! I am optimistic.

_/|\_

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Re: THE UNIVERSE SHOULD NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, CERN SCIENTISTS DISCOVER

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:21 pm

I read Horgan's blog from time to time. I don't always agree with his take on Buddhism or mysticism, but at least he talks about them. Generally find him congenial.

I think what is happening in the broader sense is that the contradictions within scientific materialism will become impossible to deny. Of course there are many individuals who are seeing that already, but it remains the reigning ideology in the 'secular west'. But I think we're approaching the point where it's going to become untenable for the majority to maintain it. What emerges in its place is anyone's guess but I think the ideas of the 'new physics' and the 'role of the observer' is a clue.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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