deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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TharpaChodron
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:00 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
Here's mine, although I feel no guilt and have nothing to confess:

I like to shoot firearms. Specifically, I like to put holes in paper at a distance, with a bang.

I own two firearms. One of them is a handgun my grandfather brought back as a war prize after the US and the Soviets pulled Europe's head out of its own ass. The other is a sniper rifle (modified Mosin Nagant) my uncle, an Army Ranger, brought back as a war prize from Vietnam. Both of these are stored at my father's house, in a safe, a few thousand miles away from where my daughter can reach them. Neither of these weapons go to the range. When I shoot targets, I borrow one of my dad's pieces (this makes him happy and gives me an opportunity to supervise his own shooting).

With that said, in a few years' time I will ensure that my daughter knows what to do when she encounters a firearm. I think this is a survival skill in the US. I don't want her to panic when there's a gun around; similarly, I want her to understand the gravity of the situation when someone is playing stupid games with a lethal toy. I want her to know how to defuse a potentially unsafe situation. She needs to know this and the only way to learn is through practical familiarity with the routines of gun safety. If she wants to learn to shoot, then we will enroll her in a safety course that we feel comfortable with. If not, that's good.

I think this is a kind of vaccine against becoming a gun nut. Or I hope it may be.
I appreciate you shared your experience. Johnny is right, statistically and realistically, having a gun is (for most people) more dangerous than not having one. These days I would have made a different choice. I was living in a pretty gnarly area, though. There were frequent drivebys, on my street, my next door's house, etc...the scariest thing that happened to me was one night I was sitting outside alone in my front in the dark, smoking a cigarette, not a soul around. An SUV pulls up across the street from me, a Latino guy, dressed normally, gets out of the driver's seat and walks to the back of the vehicle. He opens the back doors and I can hear the sound of a muffled voice, a struggling sound, then he fires four shots into the back of the SUV. Then calmly shuts the back doors, hops back in the drivers seat and drives off. I hid, panicking, thinking he may see me and realize I witnessed him murder someone and come kill me, too.

I quit smoking cigarettes outside after that. (For a time). :shock:

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:47 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 pm
He opens the back doors and I can hear the sound of a muffled voice, a struggling sound, then he fires four shots into the back of the SUV. Then calmly shuts the back doors, hops back in the drivers seat and drives off. I hid, panicking, thinking he may see me and realize I witnessed him murder someone and come kill me, too.
Holy crap! I'm glad you're okay. You did the right thing. If you had confronted him, he would surely take a shot at you. In most cases like that the best option is hiding and/or fleeing to safety.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:32 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:47 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 pm
He opens the back doors and I can hear the sound of a muffled voice, a struggling sound, then he fires four shots into the back of the SUV. Then calmly shuts the back doors, hops back in the drivers seat and drives off. I hid, panicking, thinking he may see me and realize I witnessed him murder someone and come kill me, too.
Holy crap! I'm glad you're okay. You did the right thing. If you had confronted him, he would surely take a shot at you. In most cases like that the best option is hiding and/or fleeing to safety.
Thanks! It happened so fast, I wouldn't have even been able to confront him if I wanted to. I believe it was probably Mexican Mafia related.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:35 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
How would it be enforced here, short of violating the 4th amendment more than we already do? How would such a law been applied even across economic classes? The answer of course, is that it would not be. That being the case, there is basically no chance of an actual 'gun ban' short of empowering federal or state governments to militarize even further, bust down doors etc. Not sure why anyone would even entertain the idea that the ececutive apparatus of this country could fairly enforce anything like that within the confines of our system.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:25 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
How would it be enforced here, short of violating the 4th amendment more than we already do? How would such a law been applied even across economic classes? The answer of course, is that it would not be. That being the case, there is basically no chance of an actual 'gun ban' short of empowering federal or state governments to militarize even further, bust down doors etc. Not sure why anyone would even entertain the idea that the ececutive apparatus of this country could fairly enforce anything like that within the confines of our system.
You don't have to enforce it overnight. You would start with people having to register all their weapons and insure them, heavy fines for those caught with unregistered weapons, a system of gun licences and strict checks/evaluations and re-evalutations of individuals applying for licences. Etc...

But we have already discussed this.

Anyway, personally, I would be okay with empowering federal or state governments if they use their power for the right purposes. ;) After a reasonable chunk of the population has been disarmed one can roll back the militarisation of the state forces leaving only specialist teams (like SWAT teams used to be) trained for dealing with armed offenders. In the face of a militarised civilian population it is logical that one needs a militarised civil law enforcement force. It is a vicious circle.

If you take the guns from the civilian population then you can work on demilitarising law enforcement agencies. Don't put the cart before the horse in an attempt to sabotage something as logical as reducing civilian ownership of military weapons.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am

Oh yeah, our system has a really great record with fairly implementing stuff like that and being prudent with uses of executive power, especially as regards marginalized groups. Oh wait no, the complete opposite is true.

:roll: :roll:

Witb that, I'm done with the conversation, have fun.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:41 am
Oh yeah, our system has a really great record with fairly implementing stuff like that and being prudent with uses of executive power, especially as regards marginalized groups. Oh wait no, the complete opposite is true.

:roll: :roll:

Witb that, I'm done with the conversation, have fun.
So you do not trust "the system" to do it and you don't believe "the people" can do it. It seems you prefer rolling over and dying (or being shot, the choice is yours) to any attempt to change?

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 am

Trump has been blaming the poor sap who was the security guard at the school, who failed to attack and kill the shooter. Apparently, three others also hid behind a police car and did not take him on either.

Trump is 'informed' by watchng movies and adverts for guns, and clearly has no idea how a handgun really stacks up against an AR-15 and its 13 rounds per second spraying around. Neither have I, but I am going to guess that like some trained troops and police in a real shooting, the guard froze, possibly mindful of the power of the weapon he was facing. If you've never been shot at for real, you have no idea how you will react. Trump, of course, dodged the draft because he had a bone in his foot........well, a 'temporary bone spur', a lame excuse for sure, but very likely a symptom of privilege and fear.

A statistic quoted in the Times today sates that the NYPD record of for shooting is 18% 'on target'. So let's give guns to teachers who will of course shoot like Dirty Harry and not be phased at all when they come a cross the first body with an orange-sized exit wound.

A part of me would love to see the whole Trump clan in a canned shoot, armed with pistols, being tracked down by people with AR-15's .
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
How would it be enforced here, short of violating the 4th amendment more than we already do? How would such a law been applied even across economic classes? The answer of course, is that it would not be. That being the case, there is basically no chance of an actual 'gun ban' short of empowering federal or state governments to militarize even further, bust down doors etc. Not sure why anyone would even entertain the idea that the ececutive apparatus of this country could fairly enforce anything like that within the confines of our system.
We first repeal the second amendment, since it is archaic and has no relevance anymore (plus it was really put into the Bill of Rights to protect militias that would pursue runaway slaves). That is where we begin. We repeal and replace the second amendment with an amendment that details the specific rights and regulations with respect to the kinds of arms civilians can reasonably own for hunting and self-defense.
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[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
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One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:46 am
Trump has been blaming the poor sap who was the security guard at the school, who failed to attack and kill the shooter. Apparently, three others also hid behind a police car and did not take him on either.

Trump is 'informed' by watchng movies and adverts for guns, and clearly has no idea how a handgun really stacks up against an AR-15 and its 13 rounds per second spraying around. Neither have I, but I am going to guess that like some trained troops and police in a real shooting, the guard froze, possibly mindful of the power of the weapon he was facing. If you've never been shot at for real, you have no idea how you will react. Trump, of course, dodged the draft because he had a bone in his foot........well, a 'temporary bone spur', a lame excuse for sure, but very likely a symptom of privilege and fear.

A statistic quoted in the Times today sates that the NYPD record of for shooting is 18% 'on target'. So let's give guns to teachers who will of course shoot like Dirty Harry and not be phased at all when they come a cross the first body with an orange-sized exit wound.

A part of me would love to see the whole Trump clan in a canned shoot, armed with pistols, being tracked down by people with AR-15's .
ummm...no...AR-15's are semi-auto not full auto, in other words one pull of the trigger = one round fired thereby making it virtually impossible to fire 13 rds per second...you must be thinking of the M-16 which can be fired full auto and is actually a military weapon. An AR-15 is not a military weapon...it was designed by Colt to look like an M-16 and sold to LE and civilians..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:31 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

...ummm...no...AR-15's are semi-auto not full auto, in other words one pull of the trigger = one round fired thereby making it virtually impossible to fire 13 rds per second...you must be thinking of the M-16 which can be fired full auto and is actually a military weapon. An AR-15 is not a military weapon...it was designed by Colt to look like an M-16 and sold to LE and civilians..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15
Hence the popularity of the bump stock.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... s-gun.html

These have been around for a while, sold for $19.95 on eBay for years until the Pulse Nightclub shooting, at which point they became hot commodities selling for hundreds of dollars as gun owners anticipated a ban. Totes legal.

Now Trump and NRA are appearing to willingly offer a concession by agreeing to ban bump stocks.
Sounds good, right?

Except a bump stock can be made from items found in your average garage in about 10 minutes, per a knowledgeable gun owner I know. So nothing will really change.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:42 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:31 pm
Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

...ummm...no...AR-15's are semi-auto not full auto, in other words one pull of the trigger = one round fired thereby making it virtually impossible to fire 13 rds per second...you must be thinking of the M-16 which can be fired full auto and is actually a military weapon. An AR-15 is not a military weapon...it was designed by Colt to look like an M-16 and sold to LE and civilians..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15
Hence the popularity of the bump stock.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... s-gun.html

These have been around for a while, sold for $19.95 on eBay for years until the Pulse Nightclub shooting, at which point they became hot commodities selling for hundreds of dollars as gun owners anticipated a ban. Totes legal.

Now Trump and NRA are appearing to willingly offer a concession by agreeing to ban bump stocks.
Sounds good, right?

Except a bump stock can be made from items found in your average garage in about 10 minutes, per a knowledgeable gun owner I know. So nothing will really change.
All true..however what they dont tell you about bump stocks is that accuracy while using it totally sucks...
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Jeff H » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:46 pm

Somewhat promising in the NY Times: Companies Cut Ties to the N.R.A. If sustained, this could offer a democratic/economic-based means of expressing the real mood of the country and possibly changing the debate.
On Friday Creswwell and Hsu wrote:In the aftermath of nearly all of the mass shootings in the United States, there
have been attempts to pressure lawmakers and companies that manufacture or sell
guns to change. After the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in 2012, both the
California’s state pension fund and the California teachers pension fund divested
their stakes in gun manufacturers.

But in the days since the Florida school shooting, the push for boycotts and
meaningful change has mobilized faster than with previous mass shootings.
Professor Schweitzer noted that reflected the fact that the survivors are teenagers
who are well versed in the usage and power of social media.

Late Thursday, the First National Bank of Omaha, which calls itself the largest
privately owned bank holding company in the country, said that it would not renew
its contract with the trade group to issue an N.R.A.-branded credit card. ...
But the move drew strong, even extreme, reaction on the bank’s Facebook page.

“You are doing the right thing by dropping the NRA,” one user wrote. “They are
a hate group with blood on their hands. Thank you for walking away from them.”
But the opposing viewpoint was evident as well. “I discontinued my account
with you last night for discontinuing the relationship with the NRA,” another user
wrote. “I will encourage all NRA members and gun supporters to do the same. There
are 100 million gun owners and 5 million NRA members. Good luck.”
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:57 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:42 pm
justsit wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:31 pm
...
Except a bump stock can be made from items found in your average garage in about 10 minutes, per a knowledgeable gun owner I know. So nothing will really change.
All true..however what they dont tell you about bump stocks is that accuracy while using it totally sucks...
Hardly matters when you're spraying a classroom.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:05 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm

ummm...no...AR-15's are semi-auto not full auto, in other words one pull of the trigger = one round fired thereby making it virtually impossible to fire 13 rds per second...you must be thinking of the M-16 which can be fired full auto and is actually a military weapon. An AR-15 is not a military weapon...it was designed by Colt to look like an M-16 and sold to LE and civilians..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_AR-15

Huh? The AR-15 is was not designed by Colt at all. It was designed by Armalite Rifles for the Army. It is absolutely a military weapon by design. The M-16 was Colt's rebranding of the AR-15. The M4, the present iteration of the AR-15, is merely an updated version of the original AR-15.

The stat of 13 RPS is based on its engineering specs. Practically speaking, fire rates of more than 2 RPS are unrealistic for any sustained amount of time.

That means a person can unload a 30 round clip at a crowd in one minute with ease. It takes about fifteen seconds to eject an empty clip and insert a full one. One can therefore plausibly get off a 120 rounds in three minutes and 30 thirty seconds.

This rate of fire is unnecessary for any civilian application.

The M-16 only ever fired on full auto for suppressive fire, because it is not a very accurate automatic weapon. It overheats and quickly jams. In fact, in most military uses, the M-!6, and now M4, is switched to semi-automatic for accuracy since it is presumed you are aiming at a human being.
Back in the mid-1980s -- before the shift to the M16A2 and the three-round burst -- active-duty infantry units kept to a strict rule that rifleman only fired their M16A1s on semi auto. Today's combat-experienced infantrymen are even more disciplined.
https://www.military.com/kitup/2011/12/ ... ssity.html

The only difference between the M-16 class of rifles and the AR-15 is that without a cheap modification, the AR-15 only fires on semi-auto. Therefore, this idea that the full auto mode is the important distinguishing feature in a rifle is nonsense. In reality, soldiers rarely use the full auto mode, and generally only when ordered to do so, which is rare.

There is little difference in the kind of round an AR-15 is designed to shoot as opposed to the M-16/M-4 (5.56 NATO round based on the .223 Remington). The main difference, ironically, is that civilians rounds are designed to cause MORE damage to the target since it is assumed the target will either be an animal or someone trying to harm you. Military rounds are FMJs, and do not cause as much terminal damage as civilian rounds are able to do.

So, frankly, your rebuttal is flawed for many reasons. You neglect to note:
Colt's Manufacturing Company currently uses the AR-15 trademark for its line of semi-automatic AR-15 rifles that are marketed to civilian and law-enforcement customers.
If you read further on the page, you will discover two things: 1. The AR-15 sold by Colt today is exactly the same design that Stoner created and patented for Armalite when they developed the weapon for the US Military.

2. Since the patent elapsed, many other gun manufacturers have been designing tactical rifles that either are based directly on the AR-15 or design tactical rifles with significant modifications in design and ammunition. Nevertheless, all of these use civilian rounds which are much more damaging even than FMJ military rounds. And all of these rifles can fire military rounds, which the military sells as surplus.

We really must stop pretending that the single shot Remington bolt action Model 700 hunting rifle is as dangerous as an AR-15.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Ricky » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
I wonder if the holocaust would of ever happened had Hitler not taken away all guns?

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:38 pm

I think it is worth noting that the 2nd amendment describes a right to bear arms, but it does not specify which kinds of weapons one has the right to bear. Currently, local and federal laws prohibit private ownership of specific kinds of weapons and hardly anyone objects.

Example: the balisong, or "butterfly knife." There are other blades that are also illegal to import or carry here, too. These weapons are considered a threat to public safety and if you get caught with one, you can get in serious trouble.

Other weapons banned in some or all locales in the US include nunchaku and the curious weapon known variably as a sap, slapper, blackjack, or beavertail. These are regarded as a public nuisance, too dangerous for American streets.

There are no lawsuits regarding these weapons, no nutters on talk radio complaining about the Nanny State taking away their freedoms to carve a halloween pumpkin with a switchblade, no God-and-country talk about family tradition. No one really cares.

It seems to me that a weapon such as the ar-15 or ak-47 MIGHT be a greater threat to public health and safety than a fancy folding knife (balisong) or a spring-loaded leather face-smasher (blackjack). What's the difference?

Compare the profitability of the balisong or blackjack with that of the ar-15 and your question is answered.

Also, consider the patriotism and respect for rule of law at work here:
The FBI is investigating whether a top Russian banker with ties to the Kremlin illegally funneled money to the National Rifle Association to help Donald Trump win the presidency, two sources familiar with the matter have told McClatchy.

FBI counterintelligence investigators have focused on the activities of Alexander Torshin, the deputy governor of Russia’s central bank who is known for his close relationships with both Russian President Vladimir Putin and the NRA, the sources said.

It is illegal to use foreign money to influence federal elections.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation- ... 31139.html
Last edited by DGA on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:39 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
I wonder if the holocaust would of ever happened had Hitler not taken away all guns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:47 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
I wonder if the holocaust would of ever happened had Hitler not taken away all guns?
Let's see....

How many of the countries that have bans on civilians owning semi-automatic and automatic weapons, military weapons and pistols have Nazi inspired Holocausts happening?

Australia? No.
New Zealand? No.
France? No.
Germany? No.
Spain? No.
Canada? No.
Portugal? No.
Etc? No.

So I think it is quite safe to assume that there is no causal relationship between weapons bans and Holocausts.

Hitler had not "taken away all guns". Nazis and Nazi supporters had guns. Lots of guns. He took the guns away from his opponents.

And yet, still, your comparison is completely irrelevant.

The people opposing gun bans and the people currently armed to the teeth in the U$, are the sort of people that generally would support a Holocaust, especially if it was aimed at Black, Brown, or Muslim people.

The president of the U$ (a lover of all things White and beautiful) is opposed to gun bans because he knows it would affect his buddies.

And in closing (and I don't know why I have wasted so much time on such an inane statement): The social, economic and cultural reality of the U$ today is nothing like that of Weimar Germany. Somehow I don't think that a gun ban in the U$ will lead to a Holocaust.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:48 pm

Ricky wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:52 am

I wonder what would have happened in the U$ if slavery abolitionists had the same attitude as you?
I wonder if the holocaust would of ever happened had Hitler not taken away all guns?
Most of the Jews Hitler killed were not German Jews, so this is a specious question. The largest number of Jews killed by the Nazis was in Poland, 2,900,000 88% of the total population of Jews. By contrast, the number of German Jews killed by Nazis was only 130,000, 55% percent of the total population of Jews, and less than 1% of the general population.

http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-US/bro ... ?oid=20747

In response to this popular, but ridiculous argument, history professor Alan E. Steinweis wrote in a New York Times opinion piece:
The Jews of Germany constituted less than 1 percent of the country's population. It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of the German population. Mr. Carson’s suggestion that ordinary Germans, had they had guns, would have risked their lives in armed resistance against the regime simply does not comport with the regrettable historical reality of a regime that was quite popular at home. Inside Germany, only the army possessed the physical force necessary for defying or overthrowing the Nazis, but the generals had thrown in their lot with Hitler early on.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/opin ... .html?_r=0

He also points out that Nazis did not enact any new gun legislation until 1938, and when they did, it only concerned handguns, not rifles. In general Ricky, stop watching Fox News, it is rotting your ability to think objectively. Further, Professor Steinweis notes:
The failure of Jews to mount an effective defense against the Waffen-SS in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943 provides a good example of what happens when ordinary citizens with small arms go up against a well-equipped force.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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