deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun May 20, 2018 2:50 am

justsit wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:43 pm
Statistics are meaningless to those with the power to affect real change ...
https://tinyurl.com/yc9c3h4a

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by justsit » Sun May 20, 2018 3:29 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:50 am
justsit wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 9:43 pm
Statistics are meaningless to those with the power to affect real change ...
https://tinyurl.com/yc9c3h4a
How is that graph relevant to this discussion?

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sun May 20, 2018 7:28 am

Going back to my earlier point.

If you were about to be sent on active service in the US military would you feel nervous about the risk of being shot ?

Yet, some are questioning whether it is right for schoolkids to feel nervous about the same risk, when more of them have been killed. Many of those kids know that their peers have access to guns and may even suspect some of the kids at their school of being deranged. It would be odd if a number in every school is not deranged, reflecting the proportion in wider society. After all, adult murderers, rapists etc. were all kids once.

In the military, being shot by your own colleagues is very rare, so the schoolkids have every right to their fear.

I will take the risk of extrapolating that with the current regime in place and the psychological 'copycat' drive some may feel, the school killings will soon far outstrip the military deaths unless there is a major international conflict.

The media in the UK cover US events quite often, and it is utterly bizarre to see all these killings and protests just wash over Trump and then to realise this psycho is leading the country's military might.
The US now seems like a mental patient who thinks the demons will all go away if he carries on smashing his head into a wall, harder and harder.
I remember Canadians joking that they too would like a wall to stop fleeing US citizens...........that is now no joke.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun May 20, 2018 7:53 am

The Cicada wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am
I dunno, Greg. I mean, it seems like countries with greater gun constraints also have more constraints on other things, too. Aussies have more constraints on both guns and on the internet, for example. I think that essentially equals less freedom.
Children scared of being shot dead while trying to learn is not a constraint on freedom? The only other countries where children fear being shot to death in their class rooms are those populated by "Islamic" extremists. Let that sink in a while.
Young people weren't choosing to lash out in these bizarre ways until recently. What we ultimately have in the US is a sociological problem.
I agree it is a social problem, but it is being abetted by the presence of easily available military grade weapons.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by The Cicada » Sun May 20, 2018 8:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:53 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am
I dunno, Greg. I mean, it seems like countries with greater gun constraints also have more constraints on other things, too. Aussies have more constraints on both guns and on the internet, for example. I think that essentially equals less freedom.
Children scared of being shot dead while trying to learn is not a constraint on freedom? The only other countries where children fear being shot to death in their class rooms are those populated by "Islamic" extremists. Let that sink in a while.
Young people weren't choosing to lash out in these bizarre ways until recently. What we ultimately have in the US is a sociological problem.
I agree it is a social problem, but it is being abetted by the presence of easily available military grade weapons.
Those are good points and I'm not sure I have an adequate response to that. It may be something we all have to consider soon, and it's going to be something that many people aren't going to take well—or rather, rationally—if there are no other answers.

I'm not sure how far this rabbit hole goes. The second amendment is explicitly for the purpose of defending the country and, I guess implicitly, for the purpose of fighting the government itself if it becomes tyrannical. That sounds criminal, but that's the way many people understand it. The irony is that the very thing contributors here are worried about, a tyrannical regime, is the exact reason kooky survivalists go and buy military grade weapons. A good portion of those guys are vets.

Your reasoning here is sound, but the issue itself seems to be a figurative minefield. Obviously the younger generation graduating secondary school and being able to vote will likely feel differently.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun May 20, 2018 9:31 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:28 am
Going back to my earlier point.

If you were about to be sent on active service in the US military would you feel nervous about the risk of being shot ?

Yet, some are questioning whether it is right for schoolkids to feel nervous about the same risk, when more of them have been killed. Many of those kids know that their peers have access to guns and may even suspect some of the kids at their school of being deranged. It would be odd if a number in every school is not deranged, reflecting the proportion in wider society. After all, adult murderers, rapists etc. were all kids once.
I'm not questioning anyone's "right" to feel any way. What I am questioning is the baseless claim that all children are in danger, and that children should all be consumed with fear about being shot in schools. This is not the same as caring or being passionate about wanting to fix the problem with mass shootings. In fact, I would argue such an attitude stands in the way of doing so. What the former will lead too is simply more work for the security state, and more restrictions on the behavior and daily life of children - I gaur-an-frickin-tee it.
In the military, being shot by your own colleagues is very rare, so the schoolkids have every right to their fear.
People have a right to feel however they do, there is no restriction on that. However when they want to craft policy on a claim that is more about their feelings than actually solving a public health problem, they should understand the difference, and not expect their strong emotions to lend credence to their requests or claims.
I will take the risk of extrapolating that with the current regime in place and the psychological 'copycat' drive some may feel, the school killings will soon far outstrip the military deaths unless there is a major international conflict.

The media in the UK cover US events quite often, and it is utterly bizarre to see all these killings and protests just wash over Trump and then to realise this psycho is leading the country's military might.
The US now seems like a mental patient who thinks the demons will all go away if he carries on smashing his head into a wall, harder and harder.
I remember Canadians joking that they too would like a wall to stop fleeing US citizens...........that is now no joke.
This is pejorative and a little insulting to the vast majority of Americans, it is in fact precisely a joke, and as such need not be taken seriously as actual criticism.

BTW, the rate of deaths from gun violence has actually greatly decreased in this country, what has increased sharply are mass shooting events of this kind, and of course that started long before Drumpf. I can dig up statistics and articles to this effect if you like, but it is pretty common knowledge that gun deaths here have decreased significantly since the 1990's. IIRC FBI statistics are the most comprehensive.

All I am arguing for is sanity in how people discuss this stuff, I see people jumping right into the general environment of panic and hand wringing that the media puts forth, not only do I think it's not productive, I think it leads to nonsense "solutions" and has little to do with day to day reality here.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Mon May 21, 2018 1:07 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:28 am
...

In the military, being shot by your own colleagues is very rare, so the schoolkids have every right to their fear....
Depends on which military and which war or time but generally speaking it is not very rare at all.
According to the most comprehensive survey of casualties (both fatal and nonfatal), 21 percent of the casualties in World War II were attributable to friendly fire, 39 percent of the casualties in Vietnam, and 52 percent of the casualties in the first Gulf War. In the ongoing conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, casualty rates are 41 percent and 13 percent, respectively.
Source: Krakauer, Jon. 2009. Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman, NY: Doubleday, p. 343.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 21, 2018 7:08 am

Quay wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 1:07 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:28 am
...

In the military, being shot by your own colleagues is very rare, so the schoolkids have every right to their fear....
Depends on which military and which war or time but generally speaking it is not very rare at all.
According to the most comprehensive survey of casualties (both fatal and nonfatal), 21 percent of the casualties in World War II were attributable to friendly fire, 39 percent of the casualties in Vietnam, and 52 percent of the casualties in the first Gulf War. In the ongoing conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, casualty rates are 41 percent and 13 percent, respectively.
Source: Krakauer, Jon. 2009. Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman, NY: Doubleday, p. 343.
The stats compare deaths this year. How many US troops on active service were shot by their colleagues? I can find just one, in Omaha on an airbase.

How many people of those killed in schools were shot by students?
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 21, 2018 7:51 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:31 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:28 am
Going back to my earlier point.

If you were about to be sent on active service in the US military would you feel nervous about the risk of being shot ?

Yet, some are questioning whether it is right for schoolkids to feel nervous about the same risk, when more of them have been killed. Many of those kids know that their peers have access to guns and may even suspect some of the kids at their school of being deranged. It would be odd if a number in every school is not deranged, reflecting the proportion in wider society. After all, adult murderers, rapists etc. were all kids once.
I'm not questioning anyone's "right" to feel any way. What I am questioning is the baseless claim that all children are in danger, and that children should all be consumed with fear about being shot in schools. This is not the same as caring or being passionate about wanting to fix the problem with mass shootings. In fact, I would argue such an attitude stands in the way of doing so. What the former will lead too is simply more work for the security state, and more restrictions on the behavior and daily life of children - I gaur-an-frickin-tee it.
Whether it is 'right' for them to feel that way was my point, not whether they have that 'right'.

In a country where kids can wander around with assault weapons and Trump's solution is more guns, I can look at this from the outside and see a sick nation. Like a sick body. parts of it may be just fine, but cancer spreads.

I also made the point, and make it more strongly now, that I would be astounded to find any large school without at least one deranged kid with violent tendencies.

Add that to the first point, and you potentially have at least one armed crazy person in each large school. So, I think the kids who believe it is just a matter of time before their school experiences gun violence are right to do so.

Here in the UK I would say the same is true with knife violence, but this tends to be between teen gang members. Oddly, they have the same violent tendencies as a similar kid in a US, but having little access to guns limits their ability for mass murder.

I wonder how many entrepreneurs who formerly pushed tobacco are now pushing guns using exaclty the same 'Marlboro Man' macho shit to sell a different form of death. Failure of the US to tackle the cancer is a form of mass suicide. It seems that despite protests the country is simply unable to raise enough interest for overwhelming action to get rid of the guns.

If I had a free choice of a place to raise a child, the USA would be very near the bottom of the list of Western nations. Yes, I would emigrate, especially if Trump were to be re-elected and continue to make America grate again. While he leads, there will be exponential growth in gun ownership and murderous use...............I guarantee it.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by krodha » Mon May 21, 2018 9:33 am


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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by gescom » Mon May 21, 2018 12:16 pm

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm

The second amendment was originally instituted in order ensure the right of southern militias to fetch escaped slaves.
The Cicada wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:34 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:53 am
The Cicada wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 1:41 am
I dunno, Greg. I mean, it seems like countries with greater gun constraints also have more constraints on other things, too. Aussies have more constraints on both guns and on the internet, for example. I think that essentially equals less freedom.
Children scared of being shot dead while trying to learn is not a constraint on freedom? The only other countries where children fear being shot to death in their class rooms are those populated by "Islamic" extremists. Let that sink in a while.
Young people weren't choosing to lash out in these bizarre ways until recently. What we ultimately have in the US is a sociological problem.
I agree it is a social problem, but it is being abetted by the presence of easily available military grade weapons.
Those are good points and I'm not sure I have an adequate response to that. It may be something we all have to consider soon, and it's going to be something that many people aren't going to take well—or rather, rationally—if there are no other answers.

I'm not sure how far this rabbit hole goes. The second amendment is explicitly for the purpose of defending the country and, I guess implicitly, for the purpose of fighting the government itself if it becomes tyrannical. That sounds criminal, but that's the way many people understand it. The irony is that the very thing contributors here are worried about, a tyrannical regime, is the exact reason kooky survivalists go and buy military grade weapons. A good portion of those guys are vets.

Your reasoning here is sound, but the issue itself seems to be a figurative minefield. Obviously the younger generation graduating secondary school and being able to vote will likely feel differently.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 21, 2018 4:05 pm

Add that to the first point, and you potentially have at least one armed crazy person in each large school. So, I think the kids who believe it is just a matter of time before their school experiences gun violence are right to do so.
As it is a very small minority of schools which experience shootings, I am not sure why you keep harping on this point, it is demonstrably incorrect. You are talking as if every school will one day have a mass shooting, that is silly.
Here in the UK I would say the same is true with knife violence, but this tends to be between teen gang members. Oddly, they have the same violent tendencies as a similar kid in a US, but having little access to guns limits their ability for mass murder.
Most shooting deaths here (including young people) are crime related too, once again mass shootings are a statistically very small part of the "shooting death" pie. Violence is schools is actually down, but mass shootings are up.
I wonder how many entrepreneurs who formerly pushed tobacco are now pushing guns using exaclty the same 'Marlboro Man' macho shit to sell a different form of death. Failure of the US to tackle the cancer is a form of mass suicide. It seems that despite protests the country is simply unable to raise enough interest for overwhelming action to get rid of the guns.
I agree, but talk about hyperbole "cancer", etc...get off your high horse and stop preaching to someone who actually lives here. Ironically, you kind of sound like Trump, constantly talking about how dangerous the US is.
If I had a free choice of a place to raise a child, the USA would be very near the bottom of the list of Western nations. Yes, I would emigrate, especially if Trump were to be re-elected and continue to make America grate again. While he leads, there will be exponential growth in gun ownership and murderous use...............I guarantee it.
Good for you, I like it here, it's my home, I raise my children here, and i'm getting a little irritated by hearing it's entire population pigeonholed and constantly trashed because you dislike Trump, I do too.The UK has it's own nascent fascist movements.

Do you not realize that the spike in mass shootings began here long before Drumpf?
Ironically enough, growth in gun ownership had spikes during the Obama years, ammo sales went through the roof every time there was a mass shooting during Obama's tenure.. and indeed it tends to be this way here, with gun types thinking the government is going to "take their guns" and stocking up during democratic administrations. Not saying Trump won't promote the NRA's bankrupt agenda, he almost certainly will.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon May 21, 2018 5:17 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:29 am
How is that graph relevant to this discussion?
Life expectancy is related to the murder rate and has been improving worldwide for the last 200 years.

If it is not relevant, then feel free to ignore.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon May 21, 2018 5:41 pm

Here's an interesting one. Suicide rate versus homicide rate.

https://tinyurl.com/yao68a27

I can't really say we in the US are performing as well as we should be on this graph.

This one is also interesting because of countries like Brazil and Colombia which have quite high life expectancy but also high murder rates.

https://tinyurl.com/ydxyl6su

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 21, 2018 6:22 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 4:05 pm
Add that to the first point, and you potentially have at least one armed crazy person in each large school. So, I think the kids who believe it is just a matter of time before their school experiences gun violence are right to do so.
As it is a very small minority of schools which experience shootings, I am not sure why you keep harping on this point, it is demonstrably incorrect. You are talking as if every school will one day have a mass shooting, that is silly.
It is demonstrably neither correct nor incorrect unless you have the crystal ball.........I am saying in my view it is highly likely due to the near certainty every school has a nutter and in many cases a nutter who can arm themselves with a weapon of mass murder. Trump will encourage wider access to guns and therefore the probability rises.

Your view is a little like saying that your body only has a few Stage 4 cancer cells and elsewhere the other mutating cells are only at Stage 1, so there's no cause for concern except for the minority of Stage 4 cells. It won't spread if I ignore it?

You see to be blind to the shared causes and conditions extant in schools across the country, and don't see that people are rightly anxious that they will come together sooner or later. That's OK as a view, but please don't try to make out you know these kids are wrong to be scared.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 21, 2018 7:41 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:22 pm


Your view is a little like saying that your body only has a few Stage 4 cancer cells and elsewhere the other mutating cells are only at Stage 1, so there's no cause for concern except for the minority of Stage 4 cells. It won't spread if I ignore it?
No, it isn't like that, what it's like is operating on what is actually known and wanting to address a serious public health crisis instead of painting an inaccurate and panicked picture of daily life that only serves the powerful and opportunistic.

You honestly think every school in the US is going to have a mass shooting? If you do that is bordering on delusional.
You see to be blind to the shared causes and conditions extant in schools across the country, and don't see that people are rightly anxious that they will come together sooner or later. That's OK as a view, but please don't try to make out you know these kids are wrong to be scared.
Blind? I actually live here and grew up here, in various parts of the country, and know well what it is like to live in different areas, i've even spent time in "Trump county" type places and places saturated with guns - and seen the attendant problems. You do not, and are relying on media reports to form your view of the reality of day to day life in the US. Ironically, your viewpoint appears to be just as fear-driven as Trump's, you cannot let go of the idea that people are unsafe everywhere here due to mass shootings, which is demonstrably the opposite of reality - even with the spike in these events.

Again, I didn't say they were wrong to be scared, I am taking issue with the fact that you (and anyone who makes similar claims that living or going to school here is dangerous to all) can't seem to conceptualize that because something is horrible, and is big news, and is frigthening does not imply that every kid in the country is going to be in a mass shooting.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 21, 2018 8:32 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 7:41 pm

Blind? I actually live here and grew up here, in various parts of the country, and know well what it is like to live in different areas, i've even spent time in "Trump county" type places and places saturated with guns - and seen the attendant problems. You do not, and are relying on media reports to form your view of the reality of day to day life in the US. Ironically, your viewpoint appears to be just as fear-driven as Trump's, you cannot let go of the idea that people are unsafe everywhere here due to mass shootings, which is demonstrably the opposite of reality - even with the spike in these events.
Twice, at least, you use 'demonstrably' in expressing a view on this thread. You cannot demonstrate an uncertainty, but you seem to be saying your guess is better because you live there, whereas I rely on media reports.
Well, let's unpick that. You rely on media reports also, for all the incidents you did not witness, so let's put that to bed.

Then we have your experience around gun culture. My friend, I am old; I have been bombed several times, shot at etc. in different countries. I understand gun culture, terrororism and have worked with crazed violent teens in schools, as well as trained with UK special forces very briefly. One thing I can say with certainty is that you can be so close to the problem that you cannot contextualise well.

I can't really add much, except that my own view is far from fear driven. However, I am agreeing with those kids in US schools who are fear driven, and who I believe have good reason to fear that whilst the US allows unstable kids to have access to guns, nowhere in the USA is safe from a mass school or mall shooting. Nowhere. The US citizens need to get angry enough at scraping teenage flesh off school walls to actually do something effective, or it will grow.......and then we will have 'demonstrable' evidence.........and I truly hope you all act now in your millions to stop it.
Last edited by Mantrik on Mon May 21, 2018 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Minobu » Mon May 21, 2018 8:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm
The second amendment was originally instituted in order ensure the right of southern militias to fetch escaped slaves.

i always thought it was a snub towards the British who outlawed civilians to have guns during the revolution.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by The Cicada » Mon May 21, 2018 8:42 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:36 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:09 pm
The second amendment was originally instituted in order ensure the right of southern militias to fetch escaped slaves.

i always thought it was a snub towards the British who outlawed civilians to have guns during the revolution.
:rolling:

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