Insulting a religion

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Sherab
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Insulting a religion

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:39 am

Islam is not officially a state religion in Indonesia, unlike Malaysia.

And yet ... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/08/ ... 10975.html

When might is right, what is left?

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Grigoris
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:05 am

Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:39 am
Islam is not officially a state religion in Indonesia, unlike Malaysia.

And yet ... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/08/ ... 10975.html

When might is right, what is left?
You know how many western tourists have been arrested in Thailand for sacrilege?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:33 pm

There is a country in SE Asia, I had formerly thought it was Indonesia, but if Indonesia has a nominally secular government than perhaps I was mistaken.

But essentially they have outlawed polytheism. Consequently practitioners of traditional Chinese spirituality have to reinvent themselves as "Confucians" who worship the Lord of Heaven and Buddhist have to reinvent themselves, at least outwardly, as a monotheistic religion worshipping a version of Mahāvairocana.

How accurate is that at all? It's essentially a dropped bag potential misconceptions.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Queequeg
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Queequeg » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:50 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:33 pm
There is a country in SE Asia, I had formerly thought it was Indonesia, but if Indonesia has a nominally secular government than perhaps I was mistaken.

But essentially they have outlawed polytheism. Consequently practitioners of traditional Chinese spirituality have to reinvent themselves as "Confucians" who worship the Lord of Heaven and Buddhist have to reinvent themselves, at least outwardly, as a monotheistic religion worshipping a version of Mahāvairocana.

How accurate is that at all? It's essentially a dropped bag potential misconceptions.
Sounds like Indonesia. When I was in Bali it was explained to me that the Balinese who are Hindu get by because they choose one of their trinity (Brahma) as the supreme god.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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kirtu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by kirtu » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:47 pm

Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:39 am
Islam is not officially a state religion in Indonesia, unlike Malaysia.

And yet ... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/08/ ... 10975.html
Well the facts are that Indonesia has been experiencing an assertive upswing in Islamic hegemony. It is really only nominally a pluralistic state religiously (and is not a secular state). Some islands like Bali are said to be more pluralistic than others.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Aryjna
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Aryjna » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:06 pm

The court in the city of Medan said her comments, made in 2016, triggered riots that saw Muslims attack Buddhist temples, AFP news agency reported.
Sounds like there are a lot of people with a lot of free time in their hands in Indonesia.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:43 pm

Let's not forget what happened to Governor Ahok.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Sherab
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Sherab » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:05 am
Sherab wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:39 am
Islam is not officially a state religion in Indonesia, unlike Malaysia.

And yet ... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/08/ ... 10975.html

When might is right, what is left?
You know how many western tourists have been arrested in Thailand for sacrilege?
I don't know your position on blasphemy law, but I am against it.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:03 am

Usually in Thailand, foreigners get into trouble for insulting the monarchy, not Buddhism. Respect for the sovereign is covered by a law called 'lese majeste' and it is very strictly observed in Thailand.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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kirtu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by kirtu » Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:18 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:03 am
Usually in Thailand, foreigners get into trouble for insulting the monarchy, not Buddhism. Respect for the sovereign is covered by a law called 'lese majeste' and it is very strictly observed in Thailand.
Well, unless they have a tattoo of the Buddha or an image of the Buddha on their clothes.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Wayfarer
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:03 am

What kind of penalty does that attract? Do people go to jail for it?
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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bokki
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by bokki » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:55 am

well, id only insult my own religion, if it can be called a religion...
but see here, no, not me, wikipedia
see 4 ursewlf, maybe u know already
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_p ... udi_Arabia

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:03 am
What kind of penalty does that attract? Do people go to jail for it?
Yes, all the time. The Thai King traditionally spends a portion of his summer exonerating tourists for climbing on Buddha statues for pictures or in some way or some manner of committing lèse majesté. Apparently he thinks the laws are slightly silly.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Grigoris
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:05 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:03 am
What kind of penalty does that attract? Do people go to jail for it?
Yes, all the time. The Thai King traditionally spends a portion of his summer exonerating tourists for climbing on Buddha statues for pictures or in some way or some manner of committing lèse majesté. Apparently he thinks the laws are slightly silly.
The new king or the old king? ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:10 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:05 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:11 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:03 am
What kind of penalty does that attract? Do people go to jail for it?
Yes, all the time. The Thai King traditionally spends a portion of his summer exonerating tourists for climbing on Buddha statues for pictures or in some way or some manner of committing lèse majesté. Apparently he thinks the laws are slightly silly.
The new king or the old king? ;)
The one people lynched other people over for not crying hard enough!
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Grigoris
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Grigoris » Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:16 am

This one:

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:16 am
This one:

I really thought he would be a better saxophonist.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:44 pm

I guess no one tells Queen Elizabeth that she's bad at cutting ribbons. No one tells/told King Bhumibol he should work on his intonation.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

PeterC
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by PeterC » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:30 am

Indonesia gets terrible PR. Yes there are parts of the country that are quite fundamentalist, like Medan, and if you go there then you need to avoid doing stuff like this. But it's an extremely diverse country and most parts of it are quite tolerant. The same behavior in other parts of the country would be absolutely fine.

Jokowi and indeed any national politician has to balance a number of divergent interests, some of which are muslim, so he has to at times tolerate somewhat excessive enforcement of laws in this regard. The rules of the game are pretty clear.

Apart from perhaps certain parts of Northern Europe, in pretty much every country in the world there are things that shouldn't be illegal but will nonetheless get you into trouble. Indonesia isn't really that much worse than most other places, and it's better than many.

Bristollad
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Re: Insulting a religion

Post by Bristollad » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:10 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:44 pm
I guess no one tells Queen Elizabeth that she's bad at cutting ribbons. No one tells/told King Bhumibol he should work on his intonation.
Lèse majesté is not an offense in the UK. People are free to voice their dissatisfaction with the Monarch and the Royal Family. According to Wikipedia:
United Kingdom
Section 51 of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010 abolished the common law criminal offences of sedition and "leasing-making". The latter offence, also known as "lease /ˈliːz/ making", was considered an offence of lèse-majesté or making remarks critical of the monarch of the United Kingdom. The final prosecution for this offence had occurred in 1715

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