Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

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Nemo
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Nemo » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:43 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:01 pm
In Canada when I was younger our immigration was a policy of tap on/tap off. Every January our department of labour would do a labour market study and then inform parliament to tailor immigration to current economic conditions. If there was a skills shortage that area could be opened up. If students could not find summer jobs it could be tightened. If employers were exploiting skilled immigrants the tap was turned off. So the immigrants from that time found employment in their area of expertise and became incredibly successful. Employers could not trap PhD's in jobs driving cabs and making fast food. Students and the lower class would get training and could find work easily instead of competing with doctoral degree foreigners. When I was 16 during the last tap off period I could find a job in 3 hours. Tap on all the time is neoliberalism and only benefits the rich. Tap off is perhaps unrealistic with our aging populations without massive automation and wealth redistribution. To think it is either/or permanently is a level of oversimplification that does more harm than good.
Holy moly. That just makes too much sense.

Scaling it up for the US might require that those reports be bi-annual, but that sounds great.

Does Canada not do it that way anymore?
When Brian Mulroney/Ronald Reagan introduced free trade he started a tap on all the time policy. Now student jobs are a fairy tale and I get my coffee from PhDs. My housekeeper is a lawyer.

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Malcolm
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:50 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:16 pm


Open borders are simply not an option.
Wow, Trump really did win. Sad!
Your opinion is very American and indicative of your unsophisticated political options. In Canada when I was younger our immigration was a policy of tap on/tap off. Every January our department of labour would do a labour market study and then inform parliament to tailor immigration to current economic conditions. If there was a skills shortage that area could be opened up. If students could not find summer jobs it could be tightened. If employers were exploiting skilled immigrants the tap was turned off. So the immigrants from that time found employment in their area of expertise and became incredibly successful. Employers could not trap PhD's in jobs driving cabs and making fast food. Students and the lower class would get training and could find work easily instead of competing with doctoral degree foreigners. When I was 16 during the last tap off period I could find a job in 3 hours. Tap on all the time is neoliberalism and only benefits the rich. Tap off is perhaps unrealistic with our aging populations without massive automation and wealth redistribution. To think it is either/or permanently is a level of oversimplification that does more harm than good.
Reality check time: Fortress America is just not an option. People will continue to stream north, depending on the conditions in their country, until such time everyone in NA has a comfortable middle class life with proper benefits, educational opportunities, and so on. Anything short of this is merely shortsighted. Canada is buffered by the US, and your southern border is not fortified, nor is our norther border. In any case, the immigration "problem" in the US is not from planes and boats, it is comes these days from disenfranchised people fleeing state and nonstate violence in Central America. NAFTA is working for Mexico, which is why illegal immigration from Mexico fell off a cliff.

Not only this, we are a nation of 350+ million, Canada has one tenth of the population of the US.

Right now, because of Trump's policies, crops are rotting in fields in Bakersfield, CA. because they cannot find farmworkers.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:52 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:50 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:43 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:01 pm
In Canada when I was younger our immigration was a policy of tap on/tap off. Every January our department of labour would do a labour market study and then inform parliament to tailor immigration to current economic conditions. If there was a skills shortage that area could be opened up. If students could not find summer jobs it could be tightened. If employers were exploiting skilled immigrants the tap was turned off. So the immigrants from that time found employment in their area of expertise and became incredibly successful. Employers could not trap PhD's in jobs driving cabs and making fast food. Students and the lower class would get training and could find work easily instead of competing with doctoral degree foreigners. When I was 16 during the last tap off period I could find a job in 3 hours. Tap on all the time is neoliberalism and only benefits the rich. Tap off is perhaps unrealistic with our aging populations without massive automation and wealth redistribution. To think it is either/or permanently is a level of oversimplification that does more harm than good.
Holy moly. That just makes too much sense.

Scaling it up for the US might require that those reports be bi-annual, but that sounds great.

Does Canada not do it that way anymore?
When Brian Mulroney/Ronald Reagan introduced free trade he started a tap on all the time policy. Now student jobs are a fairy tale and I get my coffee from PhDs. My housekeeper is a lawyer.
Illegal immigrants are not competing for professional positions in the US. Q has no fear of losing his job to a migrant apple picker in Upstate NY.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:52 pm
Illegal immigrants are not competing for professional positions in the US. Q has no fear of losing his job to a migrant apple picker in Upstate NY.
True, I in fact very much benefit from the migrant apple pickers. If I may say, the policies I advocate for would hurt me. My landscaping, snow removal, house cleaning, restaurant tab, etc. etc. etc. would become more expensive with a controlled labor pool. My life right now is very much subsidized by porous borders. This is why my cohort of professional middle class likes the narrative of people being able to come to the US and to work hard and better themselves. Its a nice way to say, I like that the busboy gets paid $8 an hour under the table, because it makes my Nicoise Salad only $12 instead $16. Takes no account that the busboy is trying to support his family on that while living in flop house. On one hand, how can I begrudge that meager opportunity to this fellow? On the other, its depressing wages across the bottom of the economy and that contributes to the endemic inequality.

Malcolm, what your are talking about - getting economic parity across Mexico - and the rest of the Americas, is the ideal. That's what we should be looking toward. It would be a juggernaut economy. But there's a lot of ground to cover to get to that point. In the meantime, looking at my fellow citizens, I want to devote what resources we can wrestle from the 1% to make their lives better, first, to lessen the inequality and give them a path to share in the prosperity of this country. I'll manage to cut my own lawn if that's the price.

This comes to another point - The US has to become confident in our way of doing things again, because that is what motivates us to help other countries develop in our mold. US influence in Latin America is a mess and the US has historically not done right in the region. There is, however, plenty of potential to do it right. That path is a whole discussion itself. One thing, to make that happen, Latin Americans have to stop this tendency to nationalize industries. Nothing turns off investment like the looming threat that everything can just be seized by fiat.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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justsit
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by justsit » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:58 pm
I'd vote for anyone who can get this mother*&^%#$ out of the Whitehouse.
That's the question... Who? We can't let establishment Democrats choose the candidate. It will be Clinton again.
The only person I can think of who would have even the slightest chance of winning is Joe Biden. Well respected by many Dems, lots of experience and knows how to work DC, good orator, ain't skeert of Trump. Except he's probably too old.

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:12 pm

justsit wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:31 pm
The only person I can think of who would have even the slightest chance of winning is Joe Biden. Well respected by many Dems, lots of experience and knows how to work DC, good orator, ain't skeert of Trump. Except he's probably too old.
I think its Bannon who admitted only Biden actually raised concern for the Trump campaign. I think that overstates their confidence, but whatever. I think mainline democrats would have welcomed Biden as an alternative to Clinton.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

PeterC
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:02 am

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:37 pm
This comes to another point - The US has to become confident in our way of doing things again, because that is what motivates us to help other countries develop in our mold. US influence in Latin America is a mess and the US has historically not done right in the region. There is, however, plenty of potential to do it right. That path is a whole discussion itself. One thing, to make that happen, Latin Americans have to stop this tendency to nationalize industries. Nothing turns off investment like the looming threat that everything can just be seized by fiat.
You may have inadvertently chosen the wrong words there. The world absolutely does not need other countries developing in the mold of the US. You won’t find a single other country out there that aspires to having a healthcare system, education system, justice system, infrastructure, domestic politics, racial politics, etc. that look like the US - and that was before Trump.

Venezuela is not Latin America as a whole. Mass nationaliziations actually aren’t that common. The reason everyone hears about Venezuela is that they commited the cardinal sin of nationalizing foreign-owned oil assets. They made a complete mess of that, as of many other things. But generally Latin America deserves some leniency - as you say, the US has spent the best part of a century trying to wreck the region in various ways.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:58 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:23 pm
Actually if you're going by counties Trump won approximately 2,600 counties to Clinton’s 500 with 304 electoral votes to her 227, but losing the popular vote by almost 3 million. Many are now saying that we need to abolish the electoral college and go by the popular vote. The problem with this is that California, New York, and Texas would decide all future election...the rest of the country may as well not even vote at all. This is why the electoral college was established in the first place to give each state a voice. Up until this point (not including Bush/Gore) the electoral college has served the US well. And no...I did NOT vote for Trump, I voted for Bernie...but people need to face up to the facts and if they don't like things the way they are come up with a better platform than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic etc etc. as well as come up with a better candidate than Hillary.
Typo on my part. Meant states. But the point on the wafer-thin margin is correct. See below (though it's the WaPo, this is just arithmetic):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... c2cfae4dc8
And:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... -vote.html

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:26 am

PeterC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:58 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:23 pm
Actually if you're going by counties Trump won approximately 2,600 counties to Clinton’s 500 with 304 electoral votes to her 227, but losing the popular vote by almost 3 million. Many are now saying that we need to abolish the electoral college and go by the popular vote. The problem with this is that California, New York, and Texas would decide all future election...the rest of the country may as well not even vote at all. This is why the electoral college was established in the first place to give each state a voice. Up until this point (not including Bush/Gore) the electoral college has served the US well. And no...I did NOT vote for Trump, I voted for Bernie...but people need to face up to the facts and if they don't like things the way they are come up with a better platform than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic etc etc. as well as come up with a better candidate than Hillary.
Typo on my part. Meant states. But the point on the wafer-thin margin is correct. See below (though it's the WaPo, this is just arithmetic):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... c2cfae4dc8
And:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... -vote.html
And had she won those states the electoral count would have been 273-268 she would have barely made it by 3 electoral votes instead of the 30+ that Trump won by......you think there was an uproar and a fracturing of the country over Trump winning what do you think it would have been had Clinton won by 3 electoral votes? (i.e gotten the 270 needed to win) especially with all of the claims of voter fraud and illegals voting (not saying those are true or false but it WOULD most certainly been an issue). The Dems ROYALLY screwed up when they put her up for the nomination. Too much baggage over too many years...not to mention that her and the DNC screwed the rightful person out of the nomination that by all accounts would have beaten Trump easily. Bottomline: she lost...we need to get over it and move on...and find a REAL candidate for 2020 that has more of a platform/message other than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc etc." There are Dems that are now walking away from the party due to the histrionics over the past 2 years....I, for one, am very embarrassed for the Dems (I am a registered Dem that voted for Bernie btw and was totally heartbroken when he, after knowing what her and the DNC did to him, backed her. He should have fought it and quite possibly we wouldn't be in the mess we are in)
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:14 am

Fa Dao wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:26 am
PeterC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:58 am
Fa Dao wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:23 pm
Actually if you're going by counties Trump won approximately 2,600 counties to Clinton’s 500 with 304 electoral votes to her 227, but losing the popular vote by almost 3 million. Many are now saying that we need to abolish the electoral college and go by the popular vote. The problem with this is that California, New York, and Texas would decide all future election...the rest of the country may as well not even vote at all. This is why the electoral college was established in the first place to give each state a voice. Up until this point (not including Bush/Gore) the electoral college has served the US well. And no...I did NOT vote for Trump, I voted for Bernie...but people need to face up to the facts and if they don't like things the way they are come up with a better platform than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, mysoginistic, homophobic etc etc. as well as come up with a better candidate than Hillary.
Typo on my part. Meant states. But the point on the wafer-thin margin is correct. See below (though it's the WaPo, this is just arithmetic):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... c2cfae4dc8
And:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... -vote.html
And had she won those states the electoral count would have been 273-268 she would have barely made it by 3 electoral votes instead of the 30+ that Trump won by......you think there was an uproar and a fracturing of the country over Trump winning what do you think it would have been had Clinton won by 3 electoral votes? (i.e gotten the 270 needed to win) especially with all of the claims of voter fraud and illegals voting (not saying those are true or false but it WOULD most certainly been an issue). The Dems ROYALLY screwed up when they put her up for the nomination. Too much baggage over too many years...not to mention that her and the DNC screwed the rightful person out of the nomination that by all accounts would have beaten Trump easily. Bottomline: she lost...we need to get over it and move on...and find a REAL candidate for 2020 that has more of a platform/message other than "Trump is (fill in the blank) evil, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc etc." There are Dems that are now walking away from the party due to the histrionics over the past 2 years....I, for one, am very embarrassed for the Dems (I am a registered Dem that voted for Bernie btw and was totally heartbroken when he, after knowing what her and the DNC did to him, backed her. He should have fought it and quite possibly we wouldn't be in the mess we are in)
Look, the discussion was around who could beat Trump, my point was that you don't need a very big swing to do so. End of point. Would there have been republican hysteria if HRC had won by a small margin? Of course, when is there *not* republican hysteria? They control the house, the senate, the presidency, SCOTUS, and every day they whine about how oppressed they are. This is not going away. There is no "healing" or "bipartisanship" in the foreseeable future. The last few decades have been an arms race of political tactics, and while the republicans have resorted to any and every tactic available, the democrats have held to some imaginary Geneva convention. So they lose. The arms race hasn't just been republicans vs. democrats: see, for instance how Karl Rove beat John McCain in 2000. When the democrats are prepared to spread rumors that Trump fathered an illegitimate mixed-race child, they might have a chance of winning. (Though ironically there's fairly good evidence that he did exactly that...)

The more I think about it - The Rock would be an inspired choice. No way he would do it, the opportunity cost would be too great, but it would be a landslide. And I would pay to watch the debates. The moment Trump starts dismissing him as an entertainer, he undermines his own façade.

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Nemo
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Nemo » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:34 pm

You are reduced to competing reality TV stars for governing a country. Having worked in politics it takes years to fully understand a single ministry or department. You are truly lost. Idiocracy is becoming a documentary. Anyone for Terry Crews for President?

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:52 pm

A little diversion...

How to solve political discord.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/17/17952996 ... sm-oneness
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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justsit
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by justsit » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:32 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:34 pm
You are reduced to competing reality TV stars for governing a country...You are truly lost. Idiocracy is becoming a documentary.
Well, yes, that is the problem. The three poisons are killing us. As Buddhists we understand the antidotes, but on the national level? :toilet:

PeterC
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by PeterC » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:34 pm

Nemo wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:34 pm
You are reduced to competing reality TV stars for governing a country. Having worked in politics it takes years to fully understand a single ministry or department. You are truly lost. Idiocracy is becoming a documentary. Anyone for Terry Crews for President?
It’s not necessary for a president to fully understand any given part of government - indeed it would be completely impossible for them to understand the functioning of even half of the federal government. Every system of governance relies on delegation of authority. The abrogation of that system is one of the things that makes the current US administration dangerous. After the current administration I would happily take someone with average intelligence and no particular experience as president provided they had some sort of moral compass.

Actually in many cases the value of elected executive government is greatly overstated. The Belgian federal government shut down for a year and a half not long ago. It made nondiscernable difference to anyone’s lives - except, presumably, the politicians’.

And in his defence - Dwayne Johnson has never been a reality TV star. Doesn’t pay enough.

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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:16 pm

As much as I loathe Trump, it's not as if most professional politicians do a "good" job. They usually do a job that helps them maintain power, and the status quo. Unless you are one of those people that somehow remembers the Obama, Bush or Clinton eras as these idyllic times, there's not much reason to trust career politicians either, regardless of the ugly spectacle of Trump and reality show politics. In fact many of the career politicians paved the way for someone Trump, years of expanded executive power, stomping all over the fourth amendment, allowing even further corporate graft, the list goes on and on. "Competent" technocrats enabled our system to get to the point it's at, so I don't see them and Trump as oppositional forces at all.

The idea that simply voting out Trump is going to reset things is questionable, Trump is a symptom of something that is going on all over, not just a one off an aberration. That isn't to say I don't want him gone of course.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Malcolm
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:24 pm

Basically, no one has any f*&^ing idea of what is going on or what to do about it -- and frankly, no one ever has.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:41 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:02 am
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:37 pm
This comes to another point - The US has to become confident in our way of doing things again, because that is what motivates us to help other countries develop in our mold. US influence in Latin America is a mess and the US has historically not done right in the region. There is, however, plenty of potential to do it right. That path is a whole discussion itself. One thing, to make that happen, Latin Americans have to stop this tendency to nationalize industries. Nothing turns off investment like the looming threat that everything can just be seized by fiat.
You may have inadvertently chosen the wrong words there. The world absolutely does not need other countries developing in the mold of the US. You won’t find a single other country out there that aspires to having a healthcare system, education system, justice system, infrastructure, domestic politics, racial politics, etc. that look like the US - and that was before Trump.
I guess my response is two fold.

The shortcomings are there. You're position seems to ignore all the things that are going right.

Start with the rule of law. There is no way we would have a country this big, this diverse, functioning this well if the rule of law was not as robust as it is. This not only includes enforcement of property and contract rights, the fair and peaceful resolution of disputes, peaceful and democratic transfers of power. This order under lies everything - Research and development of new technologies and their commercial applications. Look at our colleges and universities. Stanford, MIT - these are the places where the smartest people on the planet go to do their graduate work. There is no higher education system comparable in any other country (just ask academics about the value of a PhD from a top UK or European institution compared to a top US institution - the former are considered in the Academy as very inferior) The kind of openness and opportunity that we have - lots of places could and do do worse - much worse. Despite the highly publicized issues, take a look at how people across the country spend July 4 to see, life is pretty good for a vast bulk of people here. And Business... The MBA was invented in the US. What we do well in the US, we do very very well.

That does not diminish some of the problems you point out.

Not everyone has access to decent healthcare. That needs to be fixed. At the same time, when healthcare is good, its great. There's a reason why there is so much resistance to universal healthcare - because what we have is working well for many people and they myopically don't want to mess with it.

Our approach to higher education, putting the financial burden on individuals instead of viewing education as the cultivation and development of the most valuable resource we have, is clearly a mistake. And we definitely need to address the uneven quality of primary education across the country. This is a big issue with national implications but is fundamentally a state and local matter. The Dept. of Ed. can set the pace, which they did with Common Core, but implementation is fragmented.

Infrastructure - everyone knows it needs to be fixed, but nobody wants to bite the bullet (if infrastructure is something to emphasize, Cuomo is worth considering for president. The guy has initiated and completed some of the biggest public works projects in over a generation in this notoriously sclerotic State, and it would be amazing to see that approach brought to the national level). I am optimistic we are coming around to a robust effort soon. Someone is going to discover that public works programs, when done well, are politically, wildly popular. I suspect we will have another problem when it comes time to wind down the infrastructure programs, but that's another issue.

National politics - its not good. There's a lot of research going on right now trying to figure out what's happened.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... sm/568342/
https://www.hbo.com/video/real-time-wit ... d-the-blue
http://thescienceexplorer.com/humanity/ ... rat-brains
https://www.npr.org/2018/10/16/65772497 ... nservative

To summarize the above - the caustic discourse is actually mostly a fight between affluent whites - Progressives and Conservatives.
The Tribalism is a result of the nationalization of politics. By making the national political discourse the paradigm, local politics falls into the narrative.
The third and fourth link go together - being liberal or conservative might just be due to brain structure.

At least we're not shooting each other in the streets over politics. That's better than a lot of places.

I left race as the last issue. We have never fully dealt with the legacy of slavery. Also part of this, I would add, we have never dealt with the genocide that marked the founding of our society on this land. We still have the myths racial superiority and inferiority, about cowboys and indians. I don't think there is a political solution to this. This is a spiritual matter. I jokingly posted a link to an article about perceiving oneness as the cure for our divisions... I actually don't think there is any other way. This unresolved injury, for everyone involved - the descendants of the perpetrators and the descendants of the victims. IMO, there's a practical reason as part of our right livelihood we're not supposed to be butchers - the act of killing leaves deep marks on the one's doing the killing - comparable to the survivors of the carnage, not to mention the death process as Buddhists understand it. Race is implicated in poverty, inequality, injustice... almost all the failures of our society implicate race. We need to do something about this... I think there is a reason why the Civil Rights movement, led by religious leaders, was so successful and would not have been as successful if it was just a secular movement.

All that is to say, you have a point, and these are not things we would want anyone to emulate. But we also have a lot of good things going on which are really really good.

Right now, we have a moron as our spokesperson who doesn't get what we do. His whole political strategy is to get people feeling bad about how things are. "Carnage" he says. That kind of talk from the Bully Pulpit is not constructive. That just exacerbates pessimism and fear and is not conducive to cooperatively trying to fix our problems. By the same token, the pessimism from the left is also unproductive past a point.
Venezuela is not Latin America as a whole. Mass nationaliziations actually aren’t that common. The reason everyone hears about Venezuela is that they commited the cardinal sin of nationalizing foreign-owned oil assets. They made a complete mess of that, as of many other things. But generally Latin America deserves some leniency - as you say, the US has spent the best part of a century trying to wreck the region in various ways.
Bolivia has recently flirted with nationalization. Brazil is grumbling in light of the corruption scandals. Within the last generation socialist and communist revolutions have flared all over Latin America. Cuba is full communist. There is a tendency in Latin America.

I'm not particularly down on the ideals of full socialist economies, but from the perspective of US companies looking to make investments, if there is a risk that investments will be nationalized, that is going to discourage commerce. I don't think this is prescriptive in any way - its just an observation. Businesses don't like to go into unstable countries unless the payoff is commensurate to the risk. We can discuss how the US has played roles in creating the instability. There's also realities on the ground. Colombia is growing now because they've finally gotten ahead of organized crime. Investment is pouring in. Other countries like Argentina are humming along on stability.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:47 pm

PeterC wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:34 pm
Dwayne Johnson has never been a reality TV star. Doesn’t pay enough.
I am totally on board. Rock 2020. Jesse Ventura did it, and he's not nearly as cool and good looking as the Rock.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Posts: 6394
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:16 pm
As much as I loathe Trump, it's not as if most professional politicians do a "good" job. They usually do a job that helps them maintain power, and the status quo. Unless you are one of those people that somehow remembers the Obama, Bush or Clinton eras as these idyllic times, there's not much reason to trust career politicians either, regardless of the ugly spectacle of Trump and reality show politics. In fact many of the career politicians paved the way for someone Trump, years of expanded executive power, stomping all over the fourth amendment, allowing even further corporate graft, the list goes on and on. "Competent" technocrats enabled our system to get to the point it's at, so I don't see them and Trump as oppositional forces at all.

The idea that simply voting out Trump is going to reset things is questionable, Trump is a symptom of something that is going on all over, not just a one off an aberration. That isn't to say I don't want him gone of course.
What would your ideal president look like?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Posts: 6394
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Democrats are compulsive self mutilators

Post by Queequeg » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:24 pm
Basically, no one has any f*&^ing idea of what is going on or what to do about it -- and frankly, no one ever has.
We don't need a savior. We just need a vague picture of where we want to be and we push. We will all get there together.

That's what I got from the Battlestar Galactica reboot.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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