The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

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Malcolm
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:32 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...where Assad started using them against his own folks
How so/in what way?

By gassing them...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:49 pm

Read your post somewhat hurriedly due to time-constraint, so misunderstood what you were saying. I thought for a second that you meant that Saddam Hussein moved Kurds to Syria where Assad used Kurds against his own people. Thought that was kind of strange. My mistake though.

Anyhow, I don't buy the old "gassed his own people" propaganda of western imperialists.

Nor do I buy the: "Look at all these "savage" "backward" "superstitious" "undemocratic" pro-heterosexual brown people that we the west must "civilize" and "democratize" with bombs"."

Etc., etc., etc.

There are some curse-words in the following video, and I don't always necessarily agree with George Carlin; although he is spot-on on this point (he forgot to mention the Serbians though, unless this clip was taken before that invasion):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDw-zFFhFgc

Now I'm not saying that politicians such as Saddam Hussein, Muamar Gaddafi, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are beyond reproach. What I'm saying is that I'm more doubtful of the motivations of the Saudi "Wahabbis/Salafis", Zionist Israelis, Vatican policy, NATO, etc.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Adi
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Adi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:53 pm

What queer turns this thread has taken.
Indrajala wrote:...I know more about Buddhism and Confucian political ideologies than the vast majority of people in Japan and China….
A sad example of hubris and unfortunately the kind of thing often claimed by people who know very little about the topic they profess.
Malcolm wrote:...Just more proof that celibate clergy have nothing useful to say about how the rest of us live, in general.
Well, I don't know about all celibate clergy, but one in particular has certainly demonstrated this to my unsolicited satisfaction. :|

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:17 pm

Adi wrote:What queer turns this thread has taken.
Everything is interrelated, so thread-drift is often unavoidable.

It was once written that:

"Homosexuality exists in a society to the degree that a society embodies war."

When we look at the foreign policy of countries that have largely accepted homosexual acts as normal (Greece, Rome, US, UK, France, etc.); the above statement seems quite accurate.

Perpetual war is also one means of which empires maintain their decadent habits.

(Of course we perhaps could say that there have been warrior cultures that weren't actually imperialist warmongers, unlike the imperialist warmongering US, UK, Rome, etc.)
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Knotty Veneer
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:24 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
It was once written that:

"Homosexuality exists in a society to the degree that a society embodies war."

When we look at the foreign policy of countries that have largely accepted homosexual acts as normal (Greece, Rome, US, UK, France, etc.); the above statement seems quite accurate.
So who once wrote that steaming pile of nonsense and why should anyone pay any attention to them or indeed you.

It's worthy of that horrible old queer basher Fred Phelps - did it come from a Westboro Baptist church leaflet?
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

Adi
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Adi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:27 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Adi wrote:What queer turns this thread has taken.
Everything is interrelated.

It was once written that:

"Homosexuality exists in a society to the degree that a society embodies war."

When we look at the foreign policy of countries that have largely accepted homosexual acts as normal (Greece, Rome, US, UK, France, etc.); the above statement seems quite accurate.

Perpetual war is one means of which empires maintain their decadent habits.

(Of course we perhaps could say that there have been warrior cultures that weren't actually imperialist warmongers like the US, UK, Rome, etc.)
Many things have been written that sound interesting or seem superficially true but do not stand up to analysis.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:41 pm

It was quoted from a follower of Wilhelm Reich actually. I'm not really very much into Wilhelm Reich's work (as interesting as some of it is); although as they say even a clock is right twice a day.

What I quoted about war and homosexuality was also explained in Nik Douglas and Penny Slinger's book on 'Tantra' Sexual Secrets: The Alchemy of Ecstasy (although with a couple points that I don't necessarily agree with, from what I remember).

So no sensationalist/troll/attention-seeking Fred Phelps here.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:44 pm

For anyone interested in an excellent summary of Anthropological theory concerning kinship, the French Anthropologist Maurice Godelier's The Metamorphoses of Kinship is excellent.
With marriage in decline, divorce on the rise, the demise of the nuclear family, and the increase in marriages and adoptions among same-sex partners, it is clear that the structures of kinship in the modern West are in a state of flux.

In The Metamorphoses of Kinship, the world-renowned anthropologist Maurice Godelier contextualizes these developments, surveying the accumulated experience of humanity with regard to such phenomena as the organization of lines of descent, sexuality and sexual prohibitions. In parallel, Godelier studies the evolution of Western conjugal and familial traditions from their roots in the nineteenth century to the present. The conclusion he draws is that it is never the case that a man and a woman are sufficient on their own to raise a child, and nowhere are relations of kinship or the family the keystone of society.

Godelier argues that the changes of the last thirty years do not herald the disappearance or death agony of kinship, but rather its remarkable metamorphosis—one that, ironically, is bringing us closer to the “traditional” societies studied by ethnologists.
There are previews available at:

Amazon
books.google.com
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
“In order to completely liberate the mind, cultivate loving kindness.” -- Maitribhāvana Sūtra

"The bottom always falls out of the quest for the elementary. The irreducibly individual recedes like the horizon, as our analysis advances." -- Genesis, Michel Serres

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gad rgyangs
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by gad rgyangs » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:46 pm

homophobia, like anti-semitism, is a pretty reliable marker for incipient or full-blown mental illness, or at least untreatable mental retardation.
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.

"I must finally conclude that this proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind."
- Descartes, 2nd Meditation 25

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:51 pm

gad rgyangs wrote:...anti-semitism, is a pretty reliable marker for incipient or full-blown mental illness, or at least untreatable mental retardation.
Yes there are very many mentally ill anti-Semites in the west, seeing how the west likes to repeatedly bomb Semites e.g. Iraqis, Pakistanis, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Knotty Veneer
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:51 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:It was quoted from a follower of Wilhelm Reich actually. I'm not really very much into Wilhelm Reich's work (as interesting as some of it is); although as they say even a clock is right twice a day.

What I quoted about war and homosexuality was also explained in Nik Douglas and Penny Slinger's book on 'Tantra' Sexual Secrets: The Alchemy of Ecstasy (although with a couple points that I don't necessarily agree with, from what I remember).

So no sensationalist/troll/attention-seeking Fred Phelps here.
So how would Reich explain homosexuality in animals, do you think? And how does the correlation between warmongery and homosexuality relate to "Don't ask, don't tell!".

Seriously, is that statement in anyway provable? War makes you gay? Really? Absent fathers/strong mothers? Freudians are ridiculous.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

Adi
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Adi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:08 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:...
It was once written that:

"Homosexuality exists in a society to the degree that a society embodies war."

….
Knotty Veneer wrote:...
Seriously, is that statement in anyway provable?….
No. :)

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Malcolm
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:19 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:...anti-semitism, is a pretty reliable marker for incipient or full-blown mental illness, or at least untreatable mental retardation.
Yes there are very many mentally ill anti-Semites in the west, seeing how the west likes to repeatedly bomb Semites e.g. Iraqis, Pakistanis, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc.

Pakistanis and Afghanis are not semitic peoples.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lhug-Pa wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:...anti-semitism, is a pretty reliable marker for incipient or full-blown mental illness, or at least untreatable mental retardation.
Yes there are very many mentally ill anti-Semites in the west, seeing how the west likes to repeatedly bomb Semites e.g. Iraqis, Pakistanis, Afghanis, Palestinians, etc.

Pakistanis and Afghanis are not semitic peoples.
Doesn't change the fact that white-supremacist-influenced western governments & Zionist-influenced governments have had a penchant for bombing Semites and other melanated people. Plus we couldn't say that there isn't a significant Semitic or mixed-Semitic population within Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Adi
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Adi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:...
There are no sound secular reasons not to oppose marriage among [same sex people], none at all….
I think this has been proved conclusively, at least in the United States. For the last decade in the legislative and legal systems, leading up to the recent Supreme Court decision, there were hundreds or thousands of very bright lawyers being paid quite handsomely to find sound secular reasons to oppose same-sex marriage.

They found nothing. Again, they found nothing.

I say if there had been something to find they'd have found it, but there was no evidence at all, no reasoning that withstood even cursory analysis, nothing. And all this is quite plain in easily searchable public records.

Adi

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Malcolm
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:42 pm

Lhug-Pa wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that white-supremacist-influenced western governments & Zionist-influenced governments have had a penchant for bombing Semites and other melanated people. Plus we couldn't say that there isn't a significant Semitic or mixed-Semitic population within Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Zionists (Israelis) are Semites.

The US government is hardly "white supremacist". We have a black president, for lord's sake.

And no, the Afghanis and Pashtuns, etc., are not significantly mixed with people of Arabic heritage.

I am afraid you have some very racist ideas.

Anyway, this is off topic.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Knotty Veneer
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Adi wrote:I say if there had been something to find they'd have found it, but there was no evidence at all, no reasoning that withstood even cursory analysis, nothing. And all this is quite plain in easily searchable public records.

Adi
I think the marriage equality debates one sees in most Western countries now is indicative of a wider cultural shift away from Christian values - or rather meek acceptance that Biblical injunctions as a basis for legal norms. The Christian churches are not able to marshall any reasonable arguments on a variety of traditional moral topics where they once held sway, that sound convincing to anyone in the general population. Gay marriage is simply not perceived as any kind of a threat by a majority of people. Objections to it do not sound reasonable or provable. And the only logical inference is that it is based on prejudice i.e homophobia.

I think many opponents are appalled by the accusation since they do not hate individual gay people but they have not understood the logical gaps in their argument that denies gay people equality in their relationships. To deny that a man's love for another man or a woman's for another woman is not as worthy of the same respect in law as heterosexual love is indeed prejudice. What else could it be? Gay parents are as loving and as inept as straight ones. So arguing that the children raised by gay parents do not do as well as those in traditional families doesn't fly.

The opposition to gay marriage is a rearguard action by Christian churches to prevent the continuing dissolution of their influence on national policy. It's part of the culture war I suppose. In Western Europe at least, the battle is lost, thankfully.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

greentara
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by greentara » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:56 pm

Malcom, "Consenting relationships is different from state recognized marriage and child rearing rights" I have to agree with Indrajala on this point.
Further more Malcom its so childish to insult someone for their supposed smell and hygiene...its laughable!

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by JamyangTashi » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:00 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote: I think many opponents are appalled by the accusation since they do not hate individual gay people but they have not understood the logical gaps in their argument that denies gay people equality in their relationships. To deny that a man's love for another man or a woman's for another woman is not as worthy of the same respect in law as heterosexual love is indeed prejudice. What else could it be? Gay parents are as loving and as inept as straight ones. So arguing that the children raised by gay parents do not do as well as those in traditional families doesn't fly.
Speaking of logical gaps, this logic jumps from love to child raising while skipping over the biological act of creating the child with the line "What else could it be?". That, too, is a logical gap.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:04 pm

It is off-topic, Malcolm, so I won't attempt to refute some of your previous posting right now.

Now since I've drifted away somewhat from my previous 'perennialist' convictions over the past couple years, I could say that I—like many other posters here—am overall not very much into the 'Abrahamic faiths' (although probably for somewhat different reasons). However I do think that most Jews, Christians, and Muslims are good albeit somewhat misguided people with good intentions. It is the leaders of the Zionist, Vatican-Jesuit/Evangelist, and so-called "Wahhabi/Salafi" sects of these religions that are causing big problems (not to say there aren't some exceptions).

And like I said on page two of this thread, I don't necessarily disagree with what Ron Paul and H.H. the Dalai Lama have said in regard to the topic of this thread.
Last edited by Lhug-Pa on Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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