The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

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Malcolm
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Malcolm » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:26 pm

Simon E. wrote:Care to name this country which embodies all the virtues of non -prejudice ? :smile:

I think Dzoki is from the Czech Republic.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Care to name this country which embodies all the virtues of non -prejudice ? :smile:

I think Dzoki is from the Czech Republic.

That sent me a'gooling.
And it seems that Dzoki is telling the unvarnished truth. The Czech Republic really does have the most liberal stance to these issues on the planet.

Well done the people of the Czech Republic. :applause:
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Karinos
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Karinos » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:44 pm

In my humble opinion this discussion misses the point.
It doesn't really matter if gay sexual act is deemed misconduct in Mahayana/Vajrayana or not … this is not Old Testament!
From certain point of view any sexual act creates negative karma unless it’s conducted by Arya Bodhisattva.
From certain point of view actually every activity of body, speech and mind creates negative karma unless we are Arya Bodhisattva already…

What HHDL teaches is compassion, love, equality.
So one should ask yourself, how compassion and love can be applied to LGBT situation.
And HHDL says that clearly, bullying and homophobia is morally wrong.

I recommend this video – one can really understand how is it to be LGBT, how is it feel oppressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXayhUzWnl0


Being oppressed because of colour of skin, being obese or handicapped, different nationality, being poor, or less intelligent, unsuccessful, or left handed, or red hair, or LGBT … it’s all the same category.

Oppressing others is causing them to feel less worthy and push them a little bit far from realising their mind being Buddha.

Oppressing others is breaking Bodhisattva vows.

and in my opinion this is main point beautifully highlighted by HHDL - If you can’t help LGBT at least don’t harm by getting us feel less …

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:59 pm

Alfredo wrote:I'm surprised he doesn't get more heat for all the child abuse that goes on in Tibetan monasteries. The Catholic Church has been a model of openness by comparison.
I've heard stories of people trying to bring this into the light and being crushed for it.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:35 pm

Karinos wrote: Oppressing others is breaking Bodhisattva vows.
If oppression saves lives and preserves social peace, then it might prove to be a necessary evil, and hence not a violation of bodhisattva ethics if the aim is basically benevolent and in line with Buddhist morals.

Likewise, conservative values and an unwillingness to tolerate rapid changes in a given social fabric might actually preserve social order in the long-term. There were unforeseen consequences to feminism for example. Likewise, allowing gay marriage could lead to similar developments. We don't know what the real consequences will be when same sex couples in large numbers raise children. There is no historical precedent for this in human history.

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Karinos
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Karinos » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Karinos wrote:Oppressing others is breaking Bodhisattva vows.
If oppression saves lives and preserves social peace, then it might prove to be a necessary evil, and hence not a violation of bodhisattva ethics if the aim is basically benevolent and in line with Buddhist morals.
You are talking about wrathful activities of Bodhisattva. It's not oppression, it's wrathful activity motivated only with compassion and wisdom. Bodhisattva who decides to pursue such activities must be ready to bear avichi hell suffering for sake of happiness of others. some buddhist tends to forget this. If there is no egoless compassion and even small trace of aggression - it's just "smart" excuses for letting your ego do what it wants.
Indrajala wrote:... There were unforeseen consequences to feminism for example. ...
excuse me ?
Indrajala wrote:Likewise, allowing gay marriage could lead to similar developments. We don't know what the real consequences will be when same sex couples in large numbers raise children. There is no historical precedent for this in human history.
How does it matters ? These people suffer oppression. End of story.
if humanity would continue this way of thinking we'd still have slavery and feudalism.

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Lhug-Pa
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Lhug-Pa » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:29 pm

Karinos wrote:...we'd still have slavery and feudalism.
We still have slavery.

It's called corpocratic oligarchy with its 'too-big-to-fail' international-banking cartel(s).

(Or oligarchic corporatocracy, however you choose to word it)

We still have feudalism.

It is neo or corporate feudalism backed by the military-industrial-complex.

Things like the gay rights debate are used by the corporate media complex to distract people from this critical situation.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by greentara » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:35 pm

lhug pa, You've raised a valid point. The corporate sector encourages distraction and hopes the population at large will concentrate on so called 'softer issues'

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Zhen Li
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Zhen Li » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:54 pm

Or maybe some people just want to get married. In Canadian provinces, actually, it wasn't a political movement, but a few couples who took it to court - the only money involved were lawyers fees. The national act only affected a few areas.

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rory
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by rory » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:38 am

I'm a lesbian and frankly have no interest in state sanctioned patriarchal marriage, but it has helped show gay people in a sympathetic light and assuring better treatment of them internationally so I see it as very beneficial. And I do know tons of lesbians with children, so there are legal and financial issues....As for the Gay parades and weeks, I think people have been hiding so long (in the closet) that it's their way of approaching normalcy.
I also am an Ashkenazi Jew with relatives killed in the Holocaust and am revolted by Lhug-pa's anti-semitic comment. Jewish people were head and shoulders supportive of the Civil Rights movement in the US.
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by greentara » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:20 am

Lhug pa. I do often agree with you but in this case "You know, the slave-trade which also directly led to the continued mistreatment of Black people in America by Caucasians/Europeans and Zionists" Really you have to add Arabs to the list as they were up to their eyeballs in the slave trade as were fellow Africans who thought nothing of subjugating other tribes.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:03 am

rory wrote:I'm a lesbian and frankly have no interest in state sanctioned patriarchal marriage, but it has helped show gay people in a sympathetic light and assuring better treatment of them internationally so I see it as very beneficial. And I do know tons of lesbians with children, so there are legal and financial issues....As for the Gay parades and weeks, I think people have been hiding so long (in the closet) that it's their way of approaching normalcy.
I also am an Ashkenazi Jew with relatives killed in the Holocaust and am revolted by Lhug-pa's anti-semitic comment. Jewish people were head and shoulders supportive of the Civil Rights movement in the US.
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Rory
Lhug-pa has a long history of homophobia and anti-semitism on this and other forae.
He has a whole list of other weird and/or destructive belief systems too.
Without implying any condoning of any of this, it might help to know that no-one , or very very few, takes him seriously.
After a while you just expect him to show up on certain threads with his bag of delusions.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Wayfarer
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:32 am

One thing that might be reflected on is how the debate has shifted from 'acts' to 'identity'.

The acts (one in particular) are subject to sanction in very many cultures. Indeed erotic relationships between men used to be referred to as 'the love that dare not speak its name'. So the name was changed to something nobody could take exception to - namely, 'gay' - and then the debate itself was shifted to: not whether this act was or is moral or acceptable, but about 'being gay', as a political/cultural identity, which was then declared 'an inalienable right' because it was genetically determined (and therefore scientifcally validated, to boot!) Thereafter, it became impolitic to criticize the act, because to do so is comparable to 'discriminating against a cultural minority'. 'Homophobe' became a homonym (i.e. word with same meaning) to 'bigot' - and anyone who dares to say anything negative is a homophobe. So in a couple of generations, the act was transformed to 'the love one dares not to criticize'.

Very brilliant strategy, and has worked exceptionally well. For details, read carefully the comments about a book called After the Ball.
Last edited by Wayfarer on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:33 am

I have nothing but the greatest respect for HHDL. I think his view is the only logical one. Indeed, I firmly believe that anyone who doesn't want marriage equality for our gay brothers and lesbian sisters is homophobic. In the same way that anyone who is against interracial marriage is clearly a racist.
However, I don't think we should be looking to HHDL or any other religious leader to tell us what is permissible for consenting adults to do. There is something kind of comical in sexually active people deferring to celibates for permission on what to do in their relationships.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:42 am

jeeprs wrote:One thing that might be reflected on is how the debate has shifted from 'acts' to 'identity'.

The acts (one in particular) are subject to sanction in very many cultures. Indeed erotic relationships between men used to be referred to as 'the love that dare not speak its name'. So the name was changed to something nobody could take exception to - namely, 'gay' - and then the debate itself was shifted to: not whether this act was or is moral or acceptable, but about 'being gay', as a political/cultural identity, which was then declared 'an inalienable right' because it was genetically determined (and therefore scientifcally validated, to boot!) Thereafter, it became impolitic to criticize the act, because to do so is comparable to 'discriminating against a cultural minority'. 'Homophobe' became a homonym (i.e. word with same meaning) to 'bigot' - and anyone who dares to say anything negative is a homophobe. So in a couple of generations, it was transformed to 'the love one dares not to criticize.

Very brilliant strategy, and has worked exceptionally well. For details, read carefully the comments about a book called After the Ball.
There is a growing acceptance in the population at large of homosexual relationships and non-traditional families. People are beginning to see that the sky does not fall if two boys kiss. Marriage equality does no-one any harm except those who get off on going around telling everyone else how they should live their lives - and I think more and more people are seeing that.

I am a straight man and therefore have never had to experience homophobia. Earlier this year in Ireland, the State broadcaster RTE paid out damages to a conservative Catholic religious group who were called homophobic by gay groups on TV for campaigning against marriage equality. A move for which it was widely criticized and will no doubt be seen as a Pyrrhic victory for those who campaign against marriage equality. The following is a wonderfully compassionate and heartfelt speech on the nature and experience of homophobia - delivered by a drag queen from the stage of the Abbey Theatre in Dublin.

phpBB [video]
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Berry » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:32 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:However, I don't think we should be looking to HHDL or any other religious leader to tell us what is permissible for consenting adults to do
I agree.
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:55 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote: There is a growing acceptance in the population at large of homosexual relationships and non-traditional families.
In many places there is growing intolerance of advocates for traditional families and conservative values.

As jeeprs noted, homophobic is basically equated to being bigoted nowadays. If you voice opposition to gay marriage, you're sometimes associated with racism and even slavery because you are denying "equal rights" to all persons, just as racist social arrangements and slavery does/did. Fortunately in most Asian countries such ideas have not gained much mainstream attention or consideration.

Post WWII liberal thought in the west, in my estimation, has constantly demonstrated a hard line and ultimately intolerant approach to opposing views and opinions. This is especially the case in countries like Canada where certain opinions are basically criminalized and you can lose your career and livelihood for saying the wrong thing. They have 'human rights tribunals' for people they want to tear down for whatever reason. It is really unfortunate.

People are beginning to see that the sky does not fall if two boys kiss. Marriage equality does no-one any harm except those who get off on going around telling everyone else how they should live their lives - and I think more and more people are seeing that.
A lot of people thought feminism wouldn't do any damage, but it did. I know a lot of people disagree with this, which is their right, but I feel we need to examine and evaluate the long-term consequences of our social policies and reforms. If you legalize gay marriage because its advocates claim there is a human rights infringement occurring, then it sets a legal precedent for many other fringe groups to do the same whether you want to admit this immediately or not.

I do not equate homosexuality to pedophilia (I have nothing against homosexuality itself), but what is to stop pedophiles from claiming a human rights infringement based on the fact their lifestyle is presently criminal?

This is just a matter of time, especially if you look at the trends.

In my grandfather's generation you didn't joke about gays. Later in popular media, especially throughout the eighties and nineties, there was a lot of mockery of gays and lesbians. From 2000 onward homosexuality became increasingly tolerated and even fashionable. In shows like Sex and the City they presented it as normal for a woman to have a 'gay boyfriend'. Now it is considered in some circles to be an act of terrible intolerance to mock homosexuality.

At the moment if you look at some popular shows from America like South Park and Family Guy you will notice that pedophilia is being continually mocked. It is not a subject people prefer not to touch any longer, even in comedy. Pedophilia was not a subject of mockery in earlier decades really. In other words, it is no longer a strictly criminal and unspeakable act. It is the butt of jokes. The next step, as it was with homosexuality, is eventual acceptance.

So, in due time pedophiles will seek legal recognition and decriminalization of their lifestyle within certain legal parameters (like the age of consent), and be able to point to the earlier legal reforms provided to homosexual adult couples in the past. Liberal policies in today's world fundamentally lean towards such ideas of universal equality, even with activities and lifestyles that were once largely considered acts against nature and God.

In addition to pedophiles, zoophiles will and actually are in some countries seeking legal protection for their lifestyle, like Germany.

So, on that point, sticking with good old fashioned heterosexual values ain't so bad. They might be unfair to some people, but longstanding social values have the advantage of having been demonstratively effective, past and present.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:13 pm

Indrajala wrote: I do not equate homosexuality to pedophilia (I have nothing against homosexuality itself)?
Oh I think you do. Or at least see homosexuality as the beginning of a slippery slope that ends in pedophilia being accepted. Either way there is a causal relationship in your mind between the two. You are equating homosexuality and pedophilia in your post.

Any form of sexuality where consent cannot be given is wrong - pedophilia or zoophilia are wrong AND nothing to do with homosexuality. Homosexual relationships between consenting adults are nobody's business but the parties involved. There is no evidence to suggest a link between homosexuality and non-consensual acts such as pedophilia or zoophilia any more than there is one between heterosexuality and pedophilia. Your views are illogical.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by krodha » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:21 pm

Pedophilia is abuse. In the vein of rape. The prospect of pedophiles seeking equal rights is nothing like people in the LGBT community seeking equal rights. Members of the homosexual community are not harming anyone, and are not psychologically damaging children, ergo to suggest that opening the door for gay rights will be a call for pedophiles, rapists, murderers and whoever else to seek equal rights is really reaching, and absurd.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:27 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Pedophilia is abuse. In the vein of rape. The prospect of pedophiles seeking equal rights is nothing like people in the LGBT community seeking equal rights. Members of the homosexual community are not harming anyone, and are not psychologically damaging children, ergo to suggest that opening the door for gay rights will be a call for pedophiles, rapists, murderers and whoever else to seek equal rights is really reaching, and absurd.
You should reread what I wrote.

There is a legal precedent established by virtue of agreeing that a human rights infringement needs to be rectified in the case of gay couples being denied the right to marry.

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