The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:32 pm

Indrajala wrote:
You should reread what I wrote.

There is a legal precedent established by virtue of agreeing that a human rights infringement needs to be rectified in the case of gay couples being denied the right to marry.
How does allowing homosexual adults in a consensual relationship to have the same rights as heterosexual adults in a consensual relationship set a legal precedent to allow adults to have sex with children below the age of consent??
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by krodha » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:35 pm

Indrajala wrote: You should reread what I wrote.

There is a legal precedent established by virtue of agreeing that a human rights infringement needs to be rectified in the case of gay couples being denied the right to marry.
I did read what you wrote, two or three times.

Your contention that this legal precedent somehow translates to opening the door for equal rights in the case of rapists and people who abuse children is asinine.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Malcolm » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:37 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote: There is a growing acceptance in the population at large of homosexual relationships and non-traditional families.
In many places there is growing intolerance of advocates for traditional families and conservative values.
That's because there is no such a thing as a "traditional family". This is a Western Christian suburban white myth.

As jeeprs noted, homophobic is basically equated to being bigoted nowadays. If you voice opposition to gay marriage, you're sometimes associated with racism and even slavery because you are denying "equal rights" to all persons, just as racist social arrangements and slavery does/did. Fortunately in most Asian countries such ideas have not gained much mainstream attention or consideration.
Asian countries are often quite racist.



If you legalize gay marriage because its advocates claim there is a human rights infringement occurring, then it sets a legal precedent for many other fringe groups to do the same whether you want to admit this immediately or not.
No, it doesn't. But on other hand, I see no problem with polyandry, polygamy and so on.
I do not equate homosexuality to pedophilia (I have nothing against homosexuality itself), but what is to stop pedophiles from claiming a human rights infringement based on the fact their lifestyle is presently criminal?
They can claim whatever they like, but in general, it is considered criminal to have sex with children and minors. I don't see this changing any time soon.
[/quote]
So, on that point, sticking with good old fashioned heterosexual values ain't so bad. They might be unfair to some people, but longstanding social values have the advantage of having been demonstratively effective, past and present.[/quote]

Right, good old fashioned western Christian heterosexual values.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Seishin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:52 pm

Indrajala wrote:
In addition to pedophiles, zoophiles will and actually are in some countries seeking legal protection for their lifestyle, like Germany.

So, on that point, sticking with good old fashioned heterosexual values ain't so bad. They might be unfair to some people, but longstanding social values have the advantage of having been demonstratively effective, past and present.
Gay relationships are between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and zoophilia are NOT between two consenting adults. THIS is the major difference. To equate them is ridiculous.

To look at it another way, if you are against homosexual marriage then you could easily decide to be against inter-ethnic marriage. If you are happy for inter-ethnic marriage then why are you against homosexual marriage? "Good old fashioned heterosexual values" are a social construct nothing more that have seen people abused and victimised for something completely out of their control.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:56 pm

Seishin wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
In addition to pedophiles, zoophiles will and actually are in some countries seeking legal protection for their lifestyle, like Germany.

So, on that point, sticking with good old fashioned heterosexual values ain't so bad. They might be unfair to some people, but longstanding social values have the advantage of having been demonstratively effective, past and present.
Gay relationships are between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and zoophilia are NOT between two consenting adults. THIS is the major difference. To equate them is ridiculous.
Spot on.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:00 pm

Seishin wrote:
Indrajala wrote:
In addition to pedophiles, zoophiles will and actually are in some countries seeking legal protection for their lifestyle, like Germany.

So, on that point, sticking with good old fashioned heterosexual values ain't so bad. They might be unfair to some people, but longstanding social values have the advantage of having been demonstratively effective, past and present.
Gay relationships are between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and zoophilia are NOT between two consenting adults. THIS is the major difference. To equate them is ridiculous.
To be honest I think alot of the opposition to marriage equality comes from this mistaken belief homosexuality and pedophilia are essentially the same thing. It is completely irrational of course.

I am sad to see that there are Buddhists who seem share the propensity of some Christian/Jewish/Muslim clerics to insist that they have a right to tell the rest of us who we can love or have consensual sex with.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:04 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote: How does allowing homosexual adults in a consensual relationship to have the same rights as heterosexual adults in a consensual relationship set a legal precedent to allow adults to have sex with children below the age of consent??
The question of human rights infringements in this respect can be perpetually brought up once you grant that a certain once criminalized community of people have been granted legal status and protection, and had their grievances addressed in a formal legal way.

Regarding the age of consent: if the age of consent is 14, would you be okay with a 50 year old having the legal protection and social sanction to have an ongoing sexual relationship with them?

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:05 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote: I am sad to see that there are Buddhists who seem share the propensity of some Christian/Jewish/Muslim clerics to insist that they have a right to tell the rest of us who we can love or have consensual sex with.
Clearly you haven't read much classical Buddhist literature which goes to great lengths discussing sexual misconduct. Some of it clearly forbids homosexuality, too.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:08 pm

Malcolm wrote: That's because there is no such a thing as a "traditional family". This is a Western Christian suburban white myth.
Nonsense.

In my grandfather's generation most families were made up of a married man and wife plus their children. His father's generation was more or less the same.

They were farmers, not suburbanites.

Asian countries are often quite racist.

Well there's a generalization bordering on being bigoted.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Seishin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:09 pm

Indrajala wrote: Regarding the age of consent: if the age of consent is 14, would you be okay with a 50 year old having the legal protection and social sanction to have an ongoing sexual relationship with them?
This is why I said adults. I do not consider a child of 14 an adult.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:13 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote: How does allowing homosexual adults in a consensual relationship to have the same rights as heterosexual adults in a consensual relationship set a legal precedent to allow adults to have sex with children below the age of consent??
The question of human rights infringements in this respect can be perpetually brought up once you grant that a certain once criminalized community of people have been granted legal status and protection, and had their grievances addressed in a formal legal way.

Regarding the age of consent: if the age of consent is 14, would you be okay with a 50 year old having the legal protection and social sanction to have an ongoing sexual relationship with them?
But it isn't 14 in the West at least. Straw man argument. Next!

You cannot say that the legal system will listen to anyone who claims it's his/her human right to abuse a child or animal. What planet are you on?
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:16 pm

Seishin wrote: Gay relationships are between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and zoophilia are NOT between two consenting adults. THIS is the major difference. To equate them is ridiculous.
I have been careful not to equate them. I even stated quite clearly above I do not do this.

To look at it another way, if you are against homosexual marriage then you could easily decide to be against inter-ethnic marriage. If you are happy for inter-ethnic marriage then why are you against homosexual marriage?


Ethnicity, unlike physical gender, is about as real as unicorns. It only exists in people's imagination. It has causal efficacy in the real world, sure, but it is still largely abstract and representative.

Also, there is much historical precedent for cross-cultural marriages, whereas there is no historical precedent for gay marriage and/or children being commonly reared by gay and lesbian couples (the Spartans were kind of exceptional in some ways, but not really relevant to this discussion).
"Good old fashioned heterosexual values" are a social construct nothing more that have seen people abused and victimised for something completely out of their control.
In a lot of East Asian countries (Japan comes to mind) homosexuality was and still is quite common and socially acceptable provided it isn't splashed around. The big difference though is that the gay lifestyle is not expected to lead to demands for gay marriage rights.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:21 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Seishin wrote: Gay relationships are between two consenting adults. Pedophilia and zoophilia are NOT between two consenting adults. THIS is the major difference. To equate them is ridiculous.
I have been careful not to equate them. I even stated quite clearly above I do not do this.
Are you serious?? - of course you have!
Indrajala wrote: To look at it another way, if you are against homosexual marriage then you could easily decide to be against inter-ethnic marriage. If you are happy for inter-ethnic marriage then why are you against homosexual marriage?

Ethnicity, unlike physical gender, is about as real as unicorns. It only exists in people's imagination. It has causal efficacy in the real world, sure, but it is still largely abstract and representative.

Also, there is much historical precedent for cross-cultural marriages, whereas there is no historical precedent for gay marriage and/or children being commonly reared by gay and lesbian couples (the Spartans were kind of exceptional in some ways, but not really relevant to this discussion).
So what about cultural norms. Salvery was normal for thousands of years - doesn't make it any less wrong.
Indrajala wrote: In a lot of East Asian countries (Japan comes to mind) homosexuality was and still is quite common and socially acceptable provided it isn't splashed around. The big difference though is that the gay lifestyle is not expected to lead to demands for gay marriage rights.
What I don't understand here is how allowing two gay people to marry would diminish your life in any way? Why is it any of your business who other people marry if they want to?
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:24 pm

Seishin wrote: This is why I said adults. I do not consider a child of 14 an adult.
That doesn't matter in some countries if the age of consent is 14.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:25 pm

I do not equate homosexuality to pedophilia (I have nothing against homosexuality itself), but what is to stop pedophiles from claiming a human rights infringement based on the fact their lifestyle is presently criminal?
That's already established.

What separates the two is a factor of coercion and/or actual threat of force to obtain relationship status or sex, since typically, a child is not capable of the same level of decision making or interaction which an adult is. Even though age of consent defines laws like statutory rape...obviously the purpose is to protect against adults taking advantage of children who lack the developmental capacity to make decisions in the same way.

For this reason, pedophilia is a hard sell to legalize..and I think you know that.

A much more likely scenario is polygamous marriage movements...another setup involving adults in consensual relationships but I don't think there are enough mormons, etc. who would push for it
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Seishin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:30 pm

Indrajala wrote: I have been careful not to equate them. I even stated quite clearly above I do not do this.
You have equated them when you suggested that A+B=C. You are putting them in the same bag.
Indrajala wrote:Ethnicity, unlike physical gender, is about as real as unicorns. It only exists in people's imagination. It has causal efficacy in the real world, sure, but it is still largely abstract and representative.
So are you saying sexuality IS real, or is it as real as unicorns? Wouldn't that suggest that "heterosexual values" are as real as unicorns equally? Maybe we should tell that to all those people who have been abused.
Indrajala wrote:Also, there is much historical precedent for cross-cultural marriages, whereas there is no historical precedent for gay marriage and/or children being commonly reared by gay and lesbian couples (the Spartans were kind of exceptional in some ways, but not really relevant to this discussion).
And yet homosexual relations have been a part of history as far back as we know. And it was even accepted in many places. You are implying that because homosexual marriage wasn't around in history means it shouldn't be around today. This is again a ridiculous thing to say.
Indrajala wrote:In a lot of East Asian countries (Japan comes to mind) homosexuality was and still is quite common and socially acceptable provided it isn't splashed around. The big difference though is that the gay lifestyle is not expected to lead to demands for gay marriage rights.
Again, what does it matter what was done historically when times have changed.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:32 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Seishin wrote: This is why I said adults. I do not consider a child of 14 an adult.
That doesn't matter in some countries if the age of consent is 14.
Again this has nothing to do with homosexuality. The age of consent should be higher than 14 for both heterosexual and homosexual acts. What's your point here?
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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Seishin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:32 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Seishin wrote: This is why I said adults. I do not consider a child of 14 an adult.
That doesn't matter in some countries if the age of consent is 14.
It's hard to argue with a country.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Huseng » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:34 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote: Are you serious?? - of course you have!
You should reread what I wrote.

So what about cultural norms. Salvery was normal for thousands of years - doesn't make it any less wrong.
Slavery is not inherently wrong in Buddhist ethics actually. Historically slavery existed in many Buddhist cultures and was not challenged by Buddhist elites. In fact, in some literature it will even say the bodhisattva gives away their slaves as an offering and act of generosity.

I'm not condoning slavery. I'm just saying it is culturally relative. I personally don't want to live in a society with slavery.
What I don't understand here is how allowing two gay people to marry would diminish your life in any way? Why is it any of your business who other people marry if want to?
Feminism and multiculturalism looked good on paper decades ago but caused a lot of people a lot of undue hardship and stress due to the consequences of those policy reforms.

As a bodhisattva aspirant, I would like to see healthy societies and thus advocate policies which I feel are best for long-term social health (it will differ according to the country and culture of course).

One other fact about gay marriage that is overlooked is that it will divide a lot of countries and reduce asabiya (i.e., social cohesion) at a time when the west is faltering and facing enormous problems. Also, creating additional political classes only leads to further political deadlock.

Just more nails in the coffin of western civilization.

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Re: The Dalai Lama Says Gay Marriage Is OK

Post by Seishin » Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:38 pm

Indrajala wrote: western civilization.
As real as unicorns?

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