Understanding why ISIL beheads

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anjali
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Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by anjali » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:00 pm

A friend sent me the link to this interesting article which helps provide some insight into why beheadings are such a big deal for ISIL. Several images are graphic, so if you are faint-hearted don't proceed: http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5 ... _instructs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;".

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Kim O'Hara » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:38 pm

And I suppose Christians still stone criminals to death, as their holy book says?
Of course they don't, and the vast majority of Muslims are as revolted by ISIL as the vast majority of non-Muslims.
Knowing that, you will realise that the article you link to is just stirring up fear and hatred against Muslims. That is not a good way to go. We need to be building, not burning, bridges between communities.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Nemo » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:50 am

Best not to forget our friends the Saudi's chop heads off all the time. Prince Bandar was the one who put ISIS together in the first place. King Abdulah has since fired him for the screw up. Money, arms, combat training, logistics, propaganda department our all our handiwork. Qatar, US, Israel all gave support. Seems the Israeli's gave them the cool scary uniforms. That is what Israel thinks scary radicals should wear. You didn't think they just arose out of the sand did you? Haven't you noticed the orange prisoner jumpsuits? Do they need to start waterboarding them?

This was called the hornet's nest. Attract all the extremists to one place to kill them. Take out Assad and Syria then Israel can take the entire Golan and the water resources. Iraq made the mistake of trying to keep the oil. When they are down to Baghdad they will beg the Americans to come back and promise anything.

ISIS isn't meant to be beaten. Only to destabilize nations allowing our bloc to take resources and allow a state of permanent war.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:37 am

Nemo wrote:Best not to forget our friends the Saudi's chop heads off all the time. Prince Bandar was the one who put ISIS together in the first place. King Abdulah has since fired him for the screw up. Money, arms, combat training, logistics, propaganda department our all our handiwork. Qatar, US, Israel all gave support. Seems the Israeli's gave them the cool scary uniforms. That is what Israel thinks scary radicals should wear. You didn't think they just arose out of the sand did you? Haven't you noticed the orange prisoner jumpsuits? Do they need to start waterboarding them?

This was called the hornet's nest. Attract all the extremists to one place to kill them. Take out Assad and Syria then Israel can take the entire Golan and the water resources. Iraq made the mistake of trying to keep the oil. When they are down to Baghdad they will beg the Americans to come back and promise anything.

ISIS isn't meant to be beaten. Only to destabilize nations allowing our bloc to take resources and allow a state of permanent war.
:crazy:
You're assuming certain people are smart enough to set this up but dumb enough not to know that (a) it will fail just as America's other overseas interventions have failed, (b) it's all counterproductive anyway and (c) they think they won't be found out.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Rakz » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:45 am

America has nobody to blame but themselves for this current mess as always :coffee:

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:19 am

Kim O'Hara wrote: :crazy:
You're assuming certain people are smart enough to set this up but dumb enough not to know that (a) it will fail just as America's other overseas interventions have failed, (b) it's all counterproductive anyway and (c) they think they won't be found out.

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It's not an assumption. It's a matter of public record. The US trained the fighters that would later become ISIS in Jordan. Bandar Bush was responsible for arranging funding, which was also provided by Qatar. It's not difficult to set up, and as for the stupid part, well nobody does stupid quite like Americans (see John McCain).
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by greentara » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:42 am

Could not understand why ISIL so hated the poor Azidi's, why were they being terrorized? Apparently the enmity goes back, back....lost in the mists of time. Muhammad's grandson Husayn Ibn Ali was killed by the Azide and thereby made a martyr and his memory much revered in Iran. The masses still flagellate and identify with the suffering of Husayn Ibn the great martyr! Just so much hatred and violence, supposedly in the name of religion.
The other day I was listening to an old DVD of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. The Sufi music was spiritual, uplifting and quite intoxicating. The audience appreciative, even shedding tears, the women modestly dressed but not a burqua in sight. Children on parents shoulders for a better view of Nusrat and his talented singers and tabla players. The DVD was made when moderation in the Islamic community was acceptable and people could sing and dance and honour the divine through song and worship of the great Sufi masters.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by TRC » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:23 pm

I’ve noticed that the Americans have a habit of arming and training different groups, which inevitably come back to bite them and have always put it down to ignorance and/or ill-conceived, fear-driven reactive policies. Now I’m beginning to wonder whether it is actually a calculated strategy to destabilise particular regions and keep a perpetual state of war, thereby keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.

Perhaps it’s more nuanced and not quite as clear-cut as this, but when you analyse the economic and political undercurrents, I seriously think this is getting closer to the truth of the current situation.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:23 pm

TRC wrote:keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.
War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:05 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
It's not an assumption. It's a matter of public record. The US trained the fighters that would later become ISIS in Jordan.
That is a bit of an exaggeration — yes,a few dozen men trained in 2012 by the US in Jordan later joined the Islamic State, but you make it sound as if the whole command structure of IS was trained by the US and that is not true. Actually, the command structure of the IS is composed mostly of former Baathist officers.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by TRC » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
TRC wrote:keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.
War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
I don’t mean the production of arms necessarily for profit, but the huge permanent industrial military complex that the US is now dependent on, and which is fact one of the driving factors keeping America engaged in conflict. That’s the war economy I’m referring to.

But yeah you’re right, it is a massive cost to the tax payer, and that’s the paradox that this dependency has become (as all dependencies are). It’s the monkey on America’s back that has its roots back in the cold war 1950s and is now hugely detrimental to the US nation (and the world) on so many levels. That’s greed, hatred and delusion for you though.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:36 pm

TRC wrote: I don’t mean the production of arms necessarily for profit, but the huge permanent industrial military complex that the US is now dependent on, and which is fact one of the driving factors keeping America engaged in conflict. That’s the war economy I’m referring to.

But yeah you’re right, it is a massive cost to the tax payer, and that’s the paradox that this dependency has become (as all dependencies are). It’s the monkey on America’s back that has its roots back in the cold war 1950s and is now hugely detrimental to the US nation (and the world) on so many levels. That’s greed, hatred and delusion for you though.
The US is engaged in conflicts for many reasons, and a lot of them go back to the failed policies of the breakup of the British Empire, like this one.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Sep 27, 2014 3:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
TRC wrote:keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.
War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
Yes, but the people in power obviously don't care about the US taxpayer. One can't understand what is happening there by thinking that the American oligarchs have the best interests of the American people at heart. The war economy is a way of transferring wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. The US doesn't need to export to accomplish this. They simply need to use all the weaponry they have been producing and replace what they have expended.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Malcolm » Sat Sep 27, 2014 4:33 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
TRC wrote:keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.
War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
Yes, but the people in power obviously don't care about the US taxpayer. One can't understand what is happening there by thinking that the American oligarchs have the best interests of the American people at heart. The war economy is a way of transferring wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. The US doesn't need to export to accomplish this. They simply need to use all the weaponry they have been producing and replace what they have expended.
It not all a conspiracy, contrary to popular belief.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Karma Dorje » Sat Sep 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote: War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
Yes, but the people in power obviously don't care about the US taxpayer. One can't understand what is happening there by thinking that the American oligarchs have the best interests of the American people at heart. The war economy is a way of transferring wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. The US doesn't need to export to accomplish this. They simply need to use all the weaponry they have been producing and replace what they have expended.
It not all a conspiracy, contrary to popular belief.
It's not a conspiracy at all, or you could say it is a conspiracy of shared interest rather than collusion. This is business as usual for the military-industrial complex. When you produce goods whose sole purpose is to destroy, then you need conflict in order to consume them and justify additional expenditure. This is particularly important when faced with constraints on military spending in the budget like sequestration as these "projects" are funded with separate bills. Military action is another large scale public works project to attempt to inject money into a moribund economy. Given the state of the Republican Party, this is the only public works project that stands a chance of getting congressional support. Because production of modern weaponry is highly capital-intensive and not labor-intensive, it functions to funnel money from the middle class to the wealthy. It's exactly what Eisenhower warned of in his farewell address.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:56 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:And I suppose Christians still stone criminals to death, as their holy book says?
In the 80's and 90's several "Christian" pastors in the US called for stoning homosexuals. If you search, you will find that several still do.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
TRC wrote:keeping their war economy ticking along as well as more covertly and surreptitiously realising their larger geopolitical agendas.
War economies only work if you have someone to sell arms to (France and Britain in the two World Wars, for example). In this case, our government has no buyers in the region, apart from Israel. Iraq "buys" weapons from us, but we will never see a penny from those arms that we've "sold" them. All this costs the US Taxpayer billions.
The US sells weapons to itself. And contrary to your statement the US is historically the 2nd greatest weapons exporter on an annual basis (the US and Russia alternate for #1 in arms exports annual depending on the year. Germany is usually #3, Sweden and Switzerland are up there too). In 2012 the US exported $28 B worth of arms, chickenfeed in comparison to the rest of the US economy. The US has to prop up the US defense industry and this is how it sells weapons (and military services) to itself.

CNN report on worldwide arms sales

This NYT article says that US foreign weapons sales were $66 B in 2011!

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by DNS » Sat Sep 27, 2014 11:47 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Because production of modern weaponry is highly capital-intensive and not labor-intensive, it functions to funnel money from the middle class to the wealthy. It's exactly what Eisenhower warned of in his farewell address.
Only to some of the wealthy, for example those in the defense contracting businesses, missile making, Halliburton, etc. The vast majority of wealthy people do not want all these wars. The only ones that benefit from the continual wars are the military-industrial-complex, possibly Big Oil, and possibly some bankers (certainly not all bankers and virtually every nation has a central bank, not just the U.S. and not all of them are advocating war). The rest of the wealthy people do not benefit and actually stand to lose a lot of wealth in higher taxes to pay for the wars. Smart wealthy people are opposed to wars including Bill Gates, Buffet, Oprah Winfrey, etc. An increasing number of wealthy people are leaving the pro-war wing of the U.S. Republican party, or going to Libertarians or Democratic party or independent.

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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:08 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:Because production of modern weaponry is highly capital-intensive and not labor-intensive, it functions to funnel money from the middle class to the wealthy. It's exactly what Eisenhower warned of in his farewell address.
Only to some of the wealthy, for example those in the defense contracting businesses, missile making, Halliburton, etc. The vast majority of wealthy people do not want all these wars. The only ones that benefit from the continual wars are the military-industrial-complex, possibly Big Oil, and possibly some bankers (certainly not all bankers and virtually every nation has a central bank, not just the U.S. and not all of them are advocating war). The rest of the wealthy people do not benefit and actually stand to lose a lot of wealth in higher taxes to pay for the wars. Smart wealthy people are opposed to wars including Bill Gates, Buffet, Oprah Winfrey, etc. An increasing number of wealthy people are leaving the pro-war wing of the U.S. Republican party, or going to Libertarians or Democratic party or independent.
Of course it is true that there are many high profile high net worth individuals that have taken an ethical stand on this and related issues. This is commendable. However, it is a rare portfolio that doesn't benefit broadly from military spending. It's a tremendously reliable sector for ROI, hence funds and high net worth individuals tend to have a strong component of companies from the military-industrial complex and its web of suppliers. Moreover, the MIC has a tremendous influence through K Street on actual policy, which is what we are talking about. Add to that the clamoring from the genocidal maniacs in AIPAC and you have a government that is far more interested in war than its populace. After all, there was no move to actually pay for the Iraq War to date. It's still on the credit card.

As for people switching parties, every single American political party is corporatist. Even Liz Warren wouldn't dare criticize bellicose Israeli overreach. There is no anti-war party aside from Rand Paul acolytes. You know your country is hopelessly screwed when Rand Paul is the only one talking any sense.
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Re: Understanding why ISIL beheads

Post by DGA » Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:56 am

None of this answers the question, though: Why does ISIL behead people on video, specifically Westerners they've dressed in Guantanimo-style orange jump suits?

What are they trying to accomplish with such a spectacle?

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