POTUS 2016

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Who would you like to see win POTUS 2016?

Hillary Clinton
11
10%
Bernie Sanders
66
59%
Joe Biden
3
3%
Donald Trump
22
20%
Dr. Ben Carson
3
3%
Jeb Bush
2
2%
Scott Walker
0
No votes
Carly Fiorina
1
1%
Ted Cruz
3
3%
Marco Rubio
1
1%
 
Total votes: 112

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Ayu
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Ayu » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:21 am

Queequeg wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Ayu wrote:I cannot believe, anyone on this globe - except the Americans - can take the US serious, if they have Trump for President.
Agreed.

And I agree with whoever said Clinton is the best Republican candidate on offer - not that I know enough about Rubio to be quite sure.

:coffee:
Kim
As much as the thought of Trump as president horrifies me, I would posit that the US will need to be taken seriously if only because Trump might not be afraid to deploy the military on his busted logic. Crazy with a gun is not to be messed with. And Trump seems to be getting the support of the military class...
....
To be afraid of somebody is not the same as taking him serious.

I mean, where are the ideals of "American way of life" - protecting democracy & freedom? People regard this as a fairy-tale now? Not important anymore?
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Queen Elizabeth II
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queen Elizabeth II » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:02 pm

dmr82 wrote:In case you haven't figured out yet, he's an emanation of Dorje Drolo.

I have a likelier suggestion to make. The other day I was reading the preface to George Bernard Shaw’s play Too True to Be Good, which contained a passing mention of some fellow by the name of Horatio Bottomley:

G.B. Shaw: “Years ago, I said that what democracy needed was a trustworthy anthropometric machine for the selection of qualified rulers. Since then I have elaborated this by demanding the formation of panels of tested persons eligible for the different grades in the governmental hierarchy. Panel A would be for diplomacy and international finance, Panel B for national affairs, Panel C for municipal and county affairs, Panel D for the village councils and so forth. Under such a panel system the voters would lose their present liberty to return such candidates as the late Horatio Bottomley to parliament by enormous majorities; but they would gain the advantage of at least knowing that their rulers know how to read and write, which they do not enjoy at present.”

I had never heard of this man before, so I looked up the Wikipedia entry for him and learned that he was a twice-elected British Member of Parliament and convicted swindler. Reading of his life and looking at the old photos of his oratorical mannerisms, bodily physique and (above all) his hairstyle, I think there can be little doubt that Mr. Bottomley has now returned as Donald Trump.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Bottomley

Image

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:31 pm

:twothumbsup:
A wonderful find!

:rolling:
Kim

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:08 pm

Ayu wrote:To be afraid of somebody is not the same as taking him serious.
Might be a matter of nuance, but I don't disagree with your sentiment.

Re: Kasich... He doesn't even get an option above... He's the Rodney Dangerfield of the Republican slate.

Too bad. He may be one of the more decent human beings still running.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by udawa » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:12 pm

'London's answer to the Zeps! : Mr Bottomley's Great Meeting'
My grandmother witnessed the Zeppelin raids over South London in 1915-16, when she was a child.

Seems like a million years ago now, somehow. Bombing civilians didn't work then either.
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.

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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:58 pm

Apropos of Trump: I really don't see how he's a viable candidate in the general. The DNC will beat Trump the same way that the RNC beat Dukakis in 1988--by nailing him early and hard in the media right at the moment when there's no turning back for the GOP. Once Trump secures the nomination, and now it looks like he will, this will happen. And the RNC has no one to blame but itself for nurturing this monster that has returned to bite the hand that fed it, the "tea party."

Republican candidates for POTUS not named Trump have refused to take off the gloves and fight on terms that make sense to Trump supporters. And now? You get this.
Almost as soon as Donald Trump is the presumptive GOP nominee — which may be as soon as March 15 — Democrats will surely cut their negative ads, and then have at it.

They will attack Trump’s credentials as a tribune of the little guy by focusing on a money-grubbing venture like Trump University, designed to extract as much cash as possible from people who thought they would learn something about real estate from the shell of a school (Trump has been defending himself from charges of fraud for years).

They will dissect his business record. They will fasten on his failed casinos and the bankruptcies he used to stiff creditors while maintaining a lavish lifestyle, and see what they can make of mob connections to the New York real estate world.

They will fry him for hypocrisy on immigration by pointing out that Trump Tower was built by illegal Polish immigrants worked to the bone and that, according to news reports, illegal immigrants are helping build his new hotel in Washington.

They will make the cheap threats he throws at anyone who crosses him a character and temperament issue. They will hound him about his unreleased tax returns. And, of course, they will use decades-worth of controversial statements to portray him as racist and sexist.

This will all be in the tradition of the early Democratic ad campaigns that successfully kneecapped Republican nominees in 1996 and 2012 (Bob Dole and Mitt Romney, respectively). Trump’s negatives are already sky-high with the general public (60 percent), and a Democratic campaign to disqualify him would seek to make his unfavorable rating not merely alarming, but completely radioactive.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ion-213675

I'm not a Democrat, but I have to say that I find Trump so contemptible that this strategy on the part of the DNC is brilliant. "Your opponent is drowning? Throw him an anvil."

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:24 pm

DGA wrote:Apropos of Trump: I really don't see how he's a viable candidate in the general....
I'm afraid this is wishful thinking. This has been the conventional wisdom since last summer when Trump started ticking up in the polls - "As soon as people see who he REALLY is..."

We know who he really is. There isn't a troglodyte in the country who doesn't know who he is. They know, and they don't care. These people are not stupid, which seems to be the assumption underlying the conventional wisdom crowd. Instead I'd suggest, if you're living in the Boston-DC corridor or the West Coast centers, you really have no idea what's going on in this country right now.

The conventional wisdom is also probably wrong about Trump slowing down if only the rest of the party could unite behind another candidate. The only guy palatable to the establishment with any momentum is Rubio. That poor guy, if the spotlight gets shown on him, he will embarrass himself. Christie showed how to punk him, and Trump will rip him in the same vein. He will be made to look like a child trying to be a man.

Also, if the field is whittled to Trump and Rubio, that means Cruz is out, and I have a strong feeling Cruz supporters who are basically Evangelical Tea Partiers, will break for Trump rather than anyone approved of by the establishment.

As for Clinton, its a matter of time before the knives come out on her. She can't even shut her closet its so full of skeletons. She is getting no enthusiasm from her own party (Democrat turnout is consistently low) so she can't bet on a big turnout for the general election. The only thing is maybe disgust with Trump will get people out, but aversion has never proven to get people out to the polls. We have better things to do on a Tuesday than go wait on line just to vote against someone.

I'm not arguing that a Trump presidency is inevitable, but if you think throwing mud at him will diminish his popularity, I wouldn't bet on it. Trump is not Dole or Romney. And besides, politico as a source? You're not getting any insight from that echo chamber.

PS this is a populism election. So let's have this left-right populism contest out. Trump v. Bernie. That would be an election about what you want - not just what you don't want.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Grigoris
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:47 pm

When it came down to a left-right populism race in Greece, the left won and then promptly began instituting right wing political and economic policies.

Something that you may find yourselves living out in the U$ too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:04 pm

Well, to be fair, Bernie would not have to contend with German loan sharks threatening to break knee caps...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Grigoris
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:14 pm

Queequeg wrote:Well, to be fair, Bernie would not have to contend with German loan sharks threatening to break knee caps...
Sure, he has American and economic elites to deal with instead.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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conebeckham
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by conebeckham » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:15 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:When it came down to a left-right populism race in Greece, the left won and then promptly began instituting right wing political and economic policies.

Something that you may find yourselves living out in the U$ too.
I'd argue we're already seeing it in the USA. Obama is to to the right of center on many issues.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Grigoris
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:19 pm

conebeckham wrote:I'd argue we're already seeing it in the USA. Obama is to to the right of center on many issues.
True. Basically what it seems to come down to is that left populists generally have a softer approach to social issues: ie they are not ranting xenophobic, homophobic, gynophobes. What that means, in effect, is that the same political/economic decisions do not impact as heavily on the social sphere.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:36 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Queequeg wrote:Well, to be fair, Bernie would not have to contend with German loan sharks threatening to break knee caps...
Sure, he has American and economic elites to deal with instead.
Quoting from another thread today...

"I didn't think of that so it is wrong."

LOL.

Doh.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:48 pm

pwned by the banks...
Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families. That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin! Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves.

You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out.
Andrew Jackson 2016!

Actually...
"Let me just tell you about the lenders. First of all, these lenders aren't babies. These are total killers. These are not the nice, sweet little people that you think, OK? You know, I mean you're living in a world of the make-believe, Chris, you want to know the truth."
Donald Trump

I think that explains another crowd that loves Trump - the anti-Wall Street Goldbugs.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Queequeg » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:13 pm

The Republican debate last night was highly entertaining, if you're a fan of McLaughlin Report style discourse.

I think I realized why Trump is so effective. He doesn't play along with the game of accepted political discourse. It's a combination of focus group tested message delivered with discipline, with standard accepted responses. It's what has made political discourse recently so dead. Rubio is a perfect example, as is Hilaryn(but not Bill - he's a natural). They have a message and that's all they apparently have. It's one thing to stay on message though, and another to just mouth things until they have no meaning. If you've met professional politicians, there is a remarkable vacancy in the eyes of many of them.

There was an exchange last night where Cruz was criticizing Trump for wanting universal healthcare, and kept bringing up Trumps criticism that the conservative impulse to just get rid of any healthcare mandate is heartless. I'm sure it sounded like a good piece of red meat for the rabid antihealthcare crowd in his mind, but all he did was make himself look heartless -especially standing next to Kasich who has tried to distinguish himself as the truly compassionate conservative.

Trump just cut him down saying, "we're not going to let people suffer in the streets without healthcare."

Trump doesn't play that political messaging game AND he's such an Ahole he calls others out on it making them look foolish. Not to say that Trump is just id. He knows what he's saying and doing.

It's impressive to watch for the spectacle and skill.

Bernie does something similar to Hilary. He doesn't play that threading the needle focus group messaging. He starts with principles he believes and talks directly from there. Its why he appears genuine compared to Hilary with her head nodding and pointing at strangers in the crowd. Feel bad for her that she tries so hard and falls so flat no matter what.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

DGA
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:00 pm

I agree that Trump positively crushed Cruz and Rubio at last night's debate. He didn't do it on the substance so much as on the delivery. I really think Trump is less about a set of policies or principles than he is a certain kind of ethos.

here's what I was getting at earlier about Trump being kind of a Frankenstein monster that has been nurtured by the GOP in some respects since the "southern strategy," or since Reagan's campaign launch in Philadelphia, Mississippi (the original "make America great again" program, calling for a pre-civil-rights era America as the picture of greatness), or at least since the "tea party" business of 2009.
No, the majority of Republicans are not bigots. But they have certainly been enablers. Who began the attack on immigrants — legal and illegal — long before Trump arrived on the scene and made it his premier issue? Who was it who frightened Mitt Romney into selling his soul in 2012, talking of “self-deportation” to get himself right with the party’s anti-immigrant forces? Who was it who opposed any plausible means of dealing with the genuine problem of illegal immigration, forcing Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) to cower, abandon his principles — and his own immigration legislation — lest he be driven from the presidential race before it had even begun? It was not Trump. It was not even party yahoos. It was Republican Party pundits and intellectuals, trying to harness populist passions and perhaps deal a blow to any legislation for which President Obama might possibly claim even partial credit. What did Trump do but pick up where they left off, tapping the well-primed gusher of popular anger, xenophobia and, yes, bigotry that the party had already unleashed?
[...]
We are supposed to believe that Trump’s legion of “angry” people are angry about wage stagnation. No, they are angry about all the things Republicans have told them to be angry about these past 7½ years, and it has been Trump’s good fortune to be the guy to sweep them up and become their standard-bearer. He is the Napoleon who has harvested the fruit of the Revolution.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Norwegian » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:36 pm

This sums up much of the debate last night:
Image

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Malcolm
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:17 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Bernie does something similar to Hilary. He doesn't play that threading the needle focus group messaging. He starts with principles he believes and talks directly from there. Its why he appears genuine compared to Hilary with her head nodding and pointing at strangers in the crowd. Feel bad for her that she tries so hard and falls so flat no matter what.
However, the obvious difference between Trump and Sanders is that Trump does not actually believe in anything. He just wants to be POTUS. Frankly, Sanders is running because he see that our country is on the brink of critical choices that will affect us for the next three generations. He actually cares, whereas Trump just does not want to to see people littering the sidewalks outside Trump Tower — it hurts his brand.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:36 pm

I have a slightly different take, Malcolm. Trump's real talent isn't business, it's acting like a businessman--performing the caricature of a tycoon according to the expectations of people who don't mix with the truly wealthy, but aspire to. This is why he was so much more successful as a public figure than a capitalist--his books, media appearances, and especially his reality show were more lucrative for him than his often losing investments have been.

Running for president is now just another grift. Politicians run for this office as a means to promote themselves as plausible media figures. It worked for Mike Huckabee for a while, and also for Sarah Palin for a while. It seems to be working for drowsy Ben Carson. They're running for a seat on a cable news network, a book deal, a lecture tour--you know, easy money. This has been a means for Trump to keep his media brand current.

Trump is so effective at this particular grift that an army of rubes is supporting him by actually voting for him. And he's gong to ride it as long as he can. Why? Because nothing says "winner" like winning an election, and his mode of grift is pretending to be a "winner."

I would like to say something nice about Donald Trump now. I am earnestly thankful to Trump for being the first Republican of any stature to call out G.W. Bush's incompetence while campaigning for public office. All the pieties and make-believe held dear by supporters of the Bush clan decisively lost under Trump's rhetorical fist (this after Jeb Bush tried to get his brother's help in South Carolina, and said he'd do the president thing a lot like his brother did). For putting a nail in the coffin of the Bush dynasty, Mr Trump, I give you my heartfelt thanks. Too bad it was fourteen years late.

two very different perspectives on why this matters.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... w-bush-911

http://reason.com/archives/2016/02/18/t ... 1-and-iraq

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Malcolm
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Re: POTUS 2016

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:43 pm

DGA wrote:I have a slightly different take, Malcolm. Trump's real talent isn't business, it's acting like a businessman--performing the caricature of a tycoon according to the expectations of people who don't mix with the truly wealthy, but aspire to. This is why he was so much more successful as a public figure than a capitalist--his books, media appearances, and especially his reality show were more lucrative for him than his often losing investments have been.
Hence the importance of his BRAND.
Running for president is now just another grift. Politicians run for this office as a means to promote themselves as plausible media figures. It worked for Mike Huckabee for a while, and also for Sarah Palin for a while. It seems to be working for drowsy Ben Carson. They're running for a seat on a cable news network, a book deal, a lecture tour--you know, easy money. This has been a means for Trump to keep his media brand current.
We have the same take, my statement is merely laconic, as usual.
I would like to say something nice about Donald Trump now. I am earnestly thankful to Trump for being the first Republican of any stature to call out G.W. Bush's incompetence while campaigning for public office. All the pieties and make-believe held dear by supporters of the Bush clan decisively lost under Trump's rhetorical fist (this after Jeb Bush tried to get his brother's help in South Carolina, and said he'd do the president thing a lot like his brother did). For putting a nail in the coffin of the Bush dynasty, Mr Trump, I give you my heartfelt thanks. Too bad it was fourteen years late.
Don't count your chickens. You recall how many times Reagan ran for POTUS? Jeb Bush is young, he has at least two more POTUS campaigns in him.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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