Combatting extremism

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:21 pm

I really take issue with the stuff where people define those who answered surveys the wrong way as "extremist Muslims". They are probably just ignoramuses.


If you did a survey of rural Texans asking how many people thought all Muslims should be rounded up and deported, or even asking something like "do you think we should nuke the entire Middle East, you'd get a ton of "yes" answers, are they 'extremists', or just people answering those questions with gut reactions based on their own backgrounds and limited views? Similarly you could ask how many people think Obama is Muslim who should be removed by force, and you would get a lot of people...has nothing to do with their willingness to act out. You can't define someone as an 'extremist' based solely on a couple of dull statements like that, otherwise a large chunk of America are 'extremists', in one direction or another.

That said, I do think some Muslims have an issue with the values one is supposed to cherish in secular society..that doesn't make them potential terrorists though, unless you want us to start applying guilt by association for Terrorism (which, i'm sure some of you do).
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by gloriasteinem » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:51 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Muslims in US are screened before they immigrate and usually highly educated, that's why they are not that big a problem there.

In Europe they are far less educated, poorer, and closer in contact with extremist preachers.
"The head of the FBI told Senate lawmakers on Wednesday that more than 200 Americans have tried to join Islamic extremists in Iraq and Syria.

Earlier this year, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper testified before Congress that as many as 20,000 foreign fighters had joined ISIS’s ranks, about 3,400 of them from Western nations."

http://thehill.com/policy/national-secu ... s-fbi-says
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Jesse » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:20 pm

pothigai wrote: From the same Wikipedia article that you cited:
John Esposito, using poll data from Gallup, wrote in 2008 that Muslims and Americans were equally likely to reject violence against civilians. He also found that those Muslims who support violence against civilians are no more religious than Muslims who do not.
Seems to be a pretty interesting point in the article, not sure why you didn't mention it.
It's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. My point is as long as there are people willing to follow the parts of the quran that tell them to kill people, there is something obviously wrong with islam. Not something wrong with muslims, nor did I ever say all muslims are dangerous or any such nonsense.
Kim O'Hara wrote:Okay, Jesse, real-world numbers for you:
In the 14 years since the September 11 attacks, domestic right-wing extremists, including white nationalists, have killed more innocent people in the United States than jihadists inspired by al-Qaeda and ISIS. Professors Charles Kurzman and David Schanzer reviewed the statistics in the New York Times:

Despite public anxiety about extremists inspired by Al Qaeda and the Islamic State, the number of violent plots by such individuals has remained very low. Since 9/11, an average of nine American Muslims per year have been involved in an average of six terrorism-related plots against targets in the United States. Most were disrupted, but the 20 plots that were carried out accounted for 50 fatalities over the past 13 and a half years.

In contrast, right-wing extremists averaged 337 attacks per year in the decade after 9/11, causing a total of 254 fatalities, according to a study by Arie Perliger, a professor at the United States Military Academy’s Combating Terrorism Center. The toll has increased since the study was released in 2012.
Kim
This only lists the number of american muslims, which is course is going to be much lower than incidents from poorer countries where war's/daily violence are going on.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I really take issue with the stuff where people define those who answered surveys the wrong way as "extremist Muslims". They are probably just ignoramuses.

If you did a survey of rural Texans asking how many people thought all Muslims should be rounded up and deported, or even asking something like "do you think we should nuke the entire Middle East, you'd get a ton of "yes" answers, are they 'extremists', or just people answering those questions with gut reactions based on their own backgrounds and limited views? Similarly you could ask how many people think Obama is Muslim who should be removed by force, and you would get a lot of people...has nothing to do with their willingness to act out. You can't define someone as an 'extremist' based solely on a couple of dull statements like that, otherwise a large chunk of America are 'extremists', in one direction or another.

That said, I do think some Muslims have an issue with the values one is supposed to cherish in secular society..that doesn't make them potential terrorists though, unless you want us to start applying guilt by association for Terrorism (which, i'm sure some of you do).
Who ever called them extreamists? I said simply:
Going by the poll figures which seem to be unbiased-- if a bit old, many muslims while not extreamists, seem to support this extreamism.
Anyway, people seem to be arguing about different things unrelated to what I am stating. There is some weird notion that pointing out the flaws in the islamic religion it'self is akin to attacking muslims, or being a islamaphobe. Which I find hilarious. Pointing out the flaws in something is what any intelligent person should do. Dismissing those flaws under the assumption that anyone who points them out is biased/racist/prejeduced is just retarded. I'm not saying most muslims are dangerous, what I am saying is the number of the muslim extreamists is much larger than people are willing to admit, and the entire cause behind this extreamism are parts of their religious text which advocate murder.

Just because the majority of Islamic pracitioners choose to interpret the violent parts differently, or just simply aren't psychopaths doesn't mean the violent sections of the quran aren't sickening. Any religious text which advocates violence is disgusting. The old testament had plenty of them, and they were removed in the new testament. The only difference is that people aren't choosing to follow those parts of the christian bible. If they were, there would be an enormous problem, just as there is with islam.

I also think downplaying the recent incidents of terrorism doesn't help, it's obviously not a small thing when group's of people start killing people en'mass, I really don't understand how anyone can ignore the fact that their religion allows for this behavior. How can you even begin to tell these people they are wrong, when this is true? To them it's not wrong.
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:35 pm

Just because the majority of Islamic pracitioners choose to interpret the violent parts differently, or just simply aren't psychopaths doesn't mean the violent sections of the quran aren't sickening. Any religious text which advocates violence is disgusting. The old testament had plenty of them, and they were removed in the new testament. The only difference is that people aren't choosing to follow those parts of the christian bible. If they were, there would be an enormous problem, just as there is with islam.
There aren't anywhere near as many currently active Jewish or Christian terrorists obviously, but they have certainly existed in modern history, do you want lists, here's a start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_re ... Since_1948

Now obviously this is an exceptionally small group at the moment, but I can tell you, the *rhetoric* that comes from some corners of the Orthodox Jewish world sounds quite similar to the sort of thing you are concerned with with Muslims. There are also Christian groups right now in the US that are willing (at least according to their own words) and have been for a long time, willing to commit acts of violence for their religion.

Now, clearly on the whole there are sociopolitical issues within Islam that make it a different animal, and a bigger deal altogether, no denying that. However, pretending that *rhetoric* and general shit-talk is always equal to support is IMO, pretty damn ignorant, and self-serving. Namely, it's a way of justifying acting on one's overall fear of Muslims, rather than fear of some fairly specific groups of Muslims, with fairly specific plans.

What do you mean about violent parts being "removed" for the New testament, that makes no sense, the New testament is not some edited version of the Torah, so I have no idea what you are talking about.

A TON of violence can still be found in both the Christian Old Testament, a bit in the New Testament, and in the Tanakh.

Now, Judaism has a commentarial tradition that is quite old which has an effect on interpretation, but the violent parts are most definitely still there.

In the end, it still comes down to fear mongering about a faceless group that you really can't define, rather than a group you can - jihadists. People say dumb/scary things all the time, and that by itself does not make them criminals or terrorists. Accepting the risk that comes with that is part of living in a free society, and frankly, those who wish it to be otherwise (not saying that's you) are IMO the rankest form of coward for being willing to give up this notion based purely on self-centered fears.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by rory » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:45 pm

This argument is ridiculous: violent Islamic extremists are rare but with the internet and globalization they can create a lot of terror worldwide: vis Syria and Paris and Kenya.

The real problem is having stable democratic countries where Muslims live side by side peacefully with Christians, Yezidis, Atheists who are given equal rights. Women too.

Please name some countries where this exists. Tunisia? I'm not sure but it is a low low number and it is the problem. Having Muslim Sunnis and Shi'as coexist peacefully is a problem.

Islam is just where Christianity was 500 years ago, no better, no worse.

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:53 pm

rory wrote:This argument is ridiculous: violent Islamic extremists are rare but with the internet and globalization they can create a lot of terror worldwide: vis Syria and Paris and Kenya.

The real problem is having stable democratic countries where Muslims live side by side peacefully with Christians, Yezidis, Atheists who are given equal rights. Women too.

Please name some countries where this exists. Tunisia? I'm not sure but it is a low low number and it is the problem. Having Muslim Sunnis and Shi'as coexist peacefully is a problem.

Islam is just where Christianity was 500 years ago, no better, no worse.

gassho
Rory

I can agree it is due for a reformation for sure.

AFAK though, the Salafism that eventually morphed into the Jihadi movement was not particularly big 500 years ago, was it?
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:52 pm

Number 2 of a series I called “The wit and wisdom of Facebook.” (Number 1 http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p312226 got no response at all, unfortunately, but I will persist.)
I am posting them one at a time so that anyone who wants to comment on any single one of them can easily do so.
Can anyone see any errors in this one?
:namaste:
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by dharmagoat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:57 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Can anyone see any errors in this one?
Something about allied based manufacturers supplying weapons to the extremists?

As far as I know, that has happened but is not part of the cycle.

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:04 am

Sorry, I don't understand - it's there in the graphic and it does happen in real life. In what way isn't it 'part of the cycle'?

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by dharmagoat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:05 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Sorry, I don't understand - it's there in the graphic and it does happen in real life. In what way isn't it 'part of the cycle'?
It was just a guess. I was playing the game of trying to spot the error. Everything else seems accurate enough.

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:31 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Sorry, I don't understand - it's there in the graphic and it does happen in real life. In what way isn't it 'part of the cycle'?
It was just a guess. I was playing the game of trying to spot the error. Everything else seems accurate enough.
Well I thought the graphic was pretty good and it looks like it is standing up to scrutiny so far. :smile:

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by dharmagoat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:08 am

Kim O'Hara wrote:Well I thought the graphic was pretty good and it looks like it is standing up to scrutiny so far. :smile:
It looks fine to me. (I thought you had found an error and were inviting others to find it too. :emb: )

But why is the West effectively arming its enemy. How does that happen?

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by pothigai » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:43 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Well I thought the graphic was pretty good and it looks like it is standing up to scrutiny so far. :smile:
It looks fine to me. (I thought you had found an error and were inviting others to find it too. :emb: )

But why is the West effectively arming its enemy. How does that happen?
They arm Islamists if they think that it is within their interests.

In the case of Syria they armed the Islamists in an effort to bring down Assad. One example of this is their TOW (anti-tank missile) program. These are given to 'vetted' FSA brigades, the majority of which seem to function essentially as anti-tank units alongside groups like Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham. This was likely not a mistake, as these FSA brigades were already fighting alongside these extremist groups.

The most famous example of the US supporting Islamists is of course the Taliban in Afghanistan which was done in the interests of countering Russian and Iranian influence in Afghanistan.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:46 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Well I thought the graphic was pretty good and it looks like it is standing up to scrutiny so far. :smile:
It looks fine to me. (I thought you had found an error and were inviting others to find it too. :emb: )

But why is the West effectively arming its enemy. How does that happen?
(1) Money, money, money: $$ :guns: $$
(2) Propping up its (temporary) allies by supplying them with arms, then watching helplessly as the arms are filched by disloyal members of those forces or captured from loyal but not totally capable forces. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... udi-arabia :toilet:

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by dharmagoat » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:01 am


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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by muni » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:54 am

http://www.npr.org/2015/11/22/456989124 ... s-end-goal

Create sport or other activities for young ones, Muslims/all, in stead of leaving them hanging out on the streets, frustrated and not accepted. Give young ones a feeling of being welcome, of being home, a voice. Make school accesible and inviting for them as being part of the society. Lets' stop our own dividing attitude by putting everything and everyone in boxes (cultures, religions, countries, traditions....).

Even this is not a solution, it is at least acting as a human being and can solve in long term problems.
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:36 am

:good:
and in that spirit I offer Number 3 of my “The wit and wisdom of Facebook” series which began at http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p312226. Here it is:
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Paul » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:04 pm

I very strongly recommend listening to the latest podcast from Sam Harris where he's talking to Douglas Murray about all this. They have some incredibly important points: http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/o ... vilization
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Paul » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:19 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Number 2 of a series I called “The wit and wisdom of Facebook.” (Number 1 http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p312226 got no response at all, unfortunately, but I will persist.)
I am posting them one at a time so that anyone who wants to comment on any single one of them can easily do so.
Can anyone see any errors in this one?
:namaste:
Kim
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There's not just one cause for the radicalisation Islamists.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: Combatting extremism

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:29 pm

Paul wrote:I very strongly recommend listening to the latest podcast from Sam Harris where he's talking to Douglas Murray about all this. They have some incredibly important points: http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/o ... vilization
Two hours? :jawdrop:
I don't have that much time for a talk from anyone. Care to summarise and cherry-pick?

:thanks:
Kim

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