What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

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What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Wed May 04, 2016 10:38 pm

It seems to me that the terrorist group known as Daesh, but calls itself the Islamic State, is a menace to civilization and a proven risk to human life globally.

It also seems to me that ignoring Daesh will not stop it. Nor are economic measures that may curb it adequate; because Daesh holds land and some natural resources, they can develop a productive economy, if a primitive one, and further, just curbing Daesh is not enough.

I think Daesh must be stopped entire and dispersed. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

If that is the case, then it remains to ask what force or forces may be capable of stopping Daesh, and from among those forces, which is most appropriate to the task. One must then go on to ask what comes after to ensure that there is no sequel. the Marshall Plan worked in Europe, mostly; there are still some Nazis in Europe to this day, but there is no Nazi-ruled state (bracketing the question of persistent fascist states such as Franco's Spain long after the war).

What to do? What path do you advocate?

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Wed May 04, 2016 10:51 pm

Western countries should stop buying Saudi oil and "spreading democracy".

It is also important to separate Arab interests from Muslim interests overall. Muslims outside the Middle East might hate Assad but they oppose Western intervention even more. I know a few Arabs living/from in the Middle East in relatively peaceful states (Lebanon, Iraq, UAE) however, who actually basically want the US to fight their wars for them, to bomb ISIS and so on. They are partof the overall Saudi axis, even if they might not identify as Wahhabi -- they see themselves as beneficiaries of US intervention as much as the Saudis. I mean they are not as harmful since they are not influential and rich enough to fund ISIS, send Wahhabi preachers worldwide and so on but they are part of the same complex.

I think happily though, the Saudi state is toppling. They would rather see Iran suffer than negotiate a decreae in oil production -- now even Chinese demand for oil is slowing; Iran might suffer but nonetheless they are in the market after years of sanctions. Saudi can't keep the lid on the on onstability bubbling under their kingdom.

In the end most of this is beyond the control of us at home. What we can do I think is mainly:

1) Never vote for neoliberal candidates
2) Reduce consumption of petroleum-based products

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 8:03 am

It is actually really simple, all you have to do is follow the money stream back to it's source and cut it off: no money, no weaponry, no threat.

As for how to deal with the ideological component, well that is really easy too: put an end to disenfranchisement and lead by example.

Now this all presupposes that the major world powers actually want to do something about Daesh, that they are actually interested in peace, stability and economic prosperity in the Middle East. Something which I severely doubt.

PS...
It seems to me that the terrorist group known as Daesh, but calls itself the Islamic State...
Daesh is just the Arabic language acronym for Islamic State. When you say Daesh it is the same as saying ISIL/ISIS, just in a different language. ;)
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 8:51 am

I am persuaded that it would be a massive mistake to consider the Daesh in isolation from (1) the general condition of the Middle East (2) the Western policy implemented there and (3) the condition of the Western world.

I think it was Robert Fisk (or Patrick Cockburn?) who pointed out that the impulse behind the Daesh is not new: it was from the destruction/bankruptcy/disappointment of Al-Qaida that the Daesh arose. The return of the repressed: If we just destroy the Daesh we only make sure the horror returns -- and in an even more horrifying form. the Daesh proved far too extreme for the taste of other militant Islamist fundamentalists, who, let it be said, are hardly squeamish -- and I think we have every reason to believe the next rebirth of the monster will lead to an institution whose atrocities will exceed those of the Daesh. After all, atrocity is their currency, their character and the source of their hypnotic power.

To get rid of the Daesh we need first to address the dire political but above all socio-economic situation of the Middle East -- and by addressing I mean offering genuine, unselfish help. The Daesh are not terribly popular at home: its terror is directed to the outside as much as it is directed to the inside, the commanders holding on to their power through violence and fear. Such cultures do not last long. If the people in the Middle East are offered a truly better project to participate in, in time the terrorist regime will collapse of its own.

Provided that (1) the project is genuine and (2) the West does not continue pursuing its own agendas -- which are, as they have always been, invariably detrimental to the people in the (not yet) developing countries.

We also need to be honest and ask ourselves a horrible question: are we really morally superior to the barbaric Daesh? Do we really have something genuinely valuable to offer? Have we got anything like a grand communal project that gives those who participate in it dignity, makes them secure and fosters their trust, loyalty and integrity -- without putting them against an enemy, external or internal? What, in the end, are the actual values of our world?

Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mkoll » Thu May 05, 2016 8:57 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
It seems to me that the terrorist group known as Daesh, but calls itself the Islamic State...
Daesh is just the Arabic language acronym for Islamic State. When you say Daesh it is the same as saying ISIL/ISIS, just in a different language. ;)
Technically true, but "Daesh" apparently carries negative connotations and they don't like it. I haven't heard the same about "IS/ISIL/ISIS."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mkoll » Thu May 05, 2016 9:22 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
There are plenty of aspects in our culture that are not corrupt. For example, from an American's perspective, and in general (of course there are exceptions): respect for the rule of law, freedom of thought, relatively little corruption, a strong work ethic, high regard for education, charitableness, an entrepreneurial spirit, and an optimistic can-do attitude. Sure, there are corrupt aspects too, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And seriously comparing our values with those of the totalitarian and psychopathic Daesh is absurd.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 10:13 am

Mkoll wrote:And seriously comparing our values with those of the totalitarian and psychopathic Daesh is absurd.
I honestly do not think so. We are all in the West enjoying our comfort and luxury without giving a thought to their price -- or those who are paying it. Our values are paper values: we speak of compassion, of liberty, or tolerance -- but the words correspond to nothing at all. Our central value these days is our greed, and the self-interest we so single mindedly pursue is far from anything like enlightenment. While the Daesh are overtly psychopathic, psychopathy has become the unspoken norm in our lives too.

Having seen what happened when a million refugees arrived at our gates, I no longer have any illusions. We could help them right away at no noticeable cost to our lifestyle. We will not do it even though they badly need help. We could help them if there were ten, twenty, fifty times as many of them coming -- that, however, would mean we share, and share a lot; we would have to be eager to relinquish our toys and trinkets and stick only to the necessities. It is, however, absolutely and wholly unthinkable -- no politician (we do not have statesmen anymore) is willing to even consider the possibility. The European humanist dream is finished. We should finally get rid of the make-up and look into the mirror.

Btw, I am not a Yankee.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Thu May 05, 2016 10:22 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
So many athiest/Christian/agnostics? Most of the "Western" migrants to ISIL are descendants of Muslim immigrants.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 10:36 am

I have read somewhere that between 20% and 40% of those leaving Europe to fight for the Daesh come from non-Muslim backgrounds. I think it was London Review of Books but cannot find it. Atran says that "a significant number of Isis recruits actually come from Christian families – 'and they happen to be the fiercest of all the fighters we find'":

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 48251.html

And most European Muslims joining the Daesh are ethnic Muslims only -- usually the third generation of migrants, young people who suddenly discover that their lives are hollow, and nothing in their vicinity seems to offer anything they could fill the void with.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by catmoon » Thu May 05, 2016 11:31 am

The only religious groups that have ever ceased to be a thorn in someone's side are ones like the Cathars and the Albigensians. They were both exterminated.

So the choices are: A) Genocide
B) Learn to put up with them
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 11:46 am

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
I tihink it also has to do with the fact that the only "effective" global revolutionary (in the sense of overturning existing power structures) projects right now (with some very few exceptions) are militant Islamic.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 12:16 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
I tihink it also has to do with the fact that the only "effective" global revolutionary (in the sense of overturning existing power structures) projects right now (with some very few exceptions) are militant Islamic.
I think so too. And they do promise some kind of social justice, however incomplete (and horribly flawed) it in the end is.

It is also true that right now in the West we do not have any counterculture that has succeeded in persuading people that it is genuine, serious and at least worthy investigating. Around 1999 I thought that the anti-/alter-globalist impulse is going to continue what our parents started in 1968. I was wrong. Even though with every day the situation of European youth is getting worse and worse, their despair and frustration and outrage are not channelled the way they would be in the late 60s or the late 70s. And the situation is dire:

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/training_s ... statistics
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... nus-survey
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by dzoki » Thu May 05, 2016 12:49 pm

I think Daesh is a part of a deeper problem within our human society and just defeating Daesh will not be enough. I think humanity needs something like universal ethical code, which would include the following - "In your privacy you can believe any bullsh*t you like, but you have absolutely no right to try to push this onto the other people, including your own children or general public." Because it eventually always comes to a place where religious nuts - be it Muslims or Christians try to force their idiotic beliefs onto other people and outright f*ck up their lives. We can see it in Middle east, we can see it in USA, in Poland etc. So as long as this attitude of being empowered to force one's own religion based sexual, "moral" etc. ideas into the politics and law is tolerated across the planet, we will always have groups of psychopaths popping up and screwing other's lives.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 1:34 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:I think so too. And they do promise some kind of social justice, however incomplete (and horribly flawed) it in the end is.

It is also true that right now in the West we do not have any counterculture that has succeeded in persuading people that it is genuine, serious and at least worthy investigating. Around 1999 I thought that the anti-/alter-globalist impulse is going to continue what our parents started in 1968. I was wrong. Even though with every day the situation of European youth is getting worse and worse, their despair and frustration and outrage are not channelled the way they would be in the late 60s or the late 70s. And the situation is dire:

http://www.youngminds.org.uk/training_s ... statistics
http://www.theguardian.com/education/20 ... nus-survey
It has definitely been a slow and steady slide back towards old-school Fascism for some time in Europe.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 05, 2016 5:25 pm

Mkoll wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
There are plenty of aspects in our culture that are not corrupt. For example, from an American's perspective, and in general (of course there are exceptions): respect for the rule of law, freedom of thought, relatively little corruption, a strong work ethic, high regard for education, charitableness, an entrepreneurial spirit, and an optimistic can-do attitude. Sure, there are corrupt aspects too, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And seriously comparing our values with those of the totalitarian and psychopathic Daesh is absurd.

A recurring theme in this conversation, people conflating very nebulous "values" that you might find (for example) in a neighbor you like, with the "values" that drive the actions of state and corporate entities - the ones who actually determine policy, and to a large degree influence people's thinking as well.

There are some fantastic things about America, but they don't come from our power structures at all, and never have.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 6:00 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:A recurring theme in this conversation, people conflating very nebulous "values" that you might find (for example) in a neighbor you like, with the "values" that drive the actions of state and corporate entities - the ones who actually determine policy, and to a large degree influence people's thinking as well.
You may put it like that: the pursuit of the values of humanist Europe is by and large no longer rewarded, esteemed or truly cherished in the West -- actually, it is actions that openly contradict these values which are rewarded. It does not mean, naturally, that nobody acts with those values in their mind. It means, however, that the centres of power act on and propagate an entirely different set of values (while still paying lip service to the dead old gods) -- and that by default we the regular joes of Europe are encouraged in every possible way to conform and act in the way the movers and shakers do. And, to a greater or lesser degree, we all tend to succumb.

No conspiracy here, of course, just the slow spreading of the infection.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 05, 2016 6:19 pm

I don't think the situation is much different here.

Which brings me to something you mentioned before, that I agree with:

Basically, the only long-term way to fight Daesh is to create a more attractive alternative to it.

Many people will say "oh but our societies already are". In general, this is obviously true...for most of the people who live in them at least. However, there is no question that the West has engaged in enough hypocrisy and shredding of it's own supposed cultural values to make it as you said, a kind of paper tiger in terms of it's claims to superior moral values. Making those things not hollow claims, making our societies what they claim to be (but currently are not, IMO) strikes me as the only way to ever really defeat this sort of organization.

It's a pretty big task, and is probably generational in scope.. and who knows if anyone is up to it. I'd argue that since 9-11 we've basically done the opposite, and continued the long slide away from anything resembling those "values" on an institutional level (drone bombings, surveillance, dumbass culture wars, increasing economic inequality etc. pick your poison), until that changes, there will always be a recruitment pool for Daesh.

I'm sure the military-centric strategy will win out regardless.
Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Thu May 05, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 6:27 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's a pretty big task, and is probably generational in scope
Oh, absolutely. No quick fixes here.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Thu May 05, 2016 7:25 pm

why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor? Why is it so hard to believe that there are people that whole-heartedly believe in that ideology? ISIS isnt just made up of people who are pissed off poor people who blame the west for their situation. There are huge numbers of them who are educated and come from middle class and above socio-economic backgrounds.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu May 05, 2016 7:30 pm

Fa Dao wrote:why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor?
And why do people fall for such an ideology? Why they would not fall for it fifty years ago but do so now?

Why do people turn to Nazism?
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