What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Fri May 06, 2016 8:25 pm

MiphamFan wrote: St George (some British tribal leader).
St George was a Roman soldier who killed a big lizard in Lebanon. Why the English liked him so much (not British, English in this case) is another matter.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 8:40 pm

DGA wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.
Saying Daesh represents one strand of Islamic thinking is one thing. Saying it is Islamic thinking tout court, or the logical terminus of Islamic thought and practice, as some have done at DW, is highly problematic.

Daesh is more productively understood as a political problem than a religious one. It's a political problem spoken in religious discourse, and with many religious inflections. How to address the political problem at the root of it?
Separation of politics and religion only began in the West itself very recently (Napoleon still got his crown from the Pope) and cannot be applied "tout court" to all forms of political organization and in the case of ISIL one cannot make a neat separation between the two

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 8:45 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Christianity was tempered by Neo-Platonism and Roman religion. The author of the Gospel of John for example definitely knew at least some Platonism.
Indeed, many of the early Christians were versed in forms of Ancient Greek philosophy which is not surprising given they were the dominant philosophical systems of the time.
St Brigid is the most obvious example.
Well, there seems to be some conflicting accounts regarding her. Safe to say that Christianity adopted dates and festivals of regional pre-Christian religions. But sharing a name with a pre-Christian deity is not the same as actually being the pre-Christian deity.
But also St Martin (Mars).
Ditto on the Martin. Though there are documented cases of actual St Martin's, one of which was a Pope until 629 AD and the earliest one being a bishop of Tours around 371AD.
St George (some British tribal leader).
Saint George's father was Capadoccian and his mother was a Greek from Lydda Palestine.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 8:49 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Separation of politics and religion only began in the West itself very recently...
The idea arose quite early actually. You do know why Socrates was condemned to death, right?

Anyway, I don't know about other European countries but here in Greece each new parliament is blessed by Christian priests and sworn in with a Christian oath (though it is no longer compulsory).
...one cannot make a neat separation between the two
Do you believe that western secular ethics differ so greatly from Christian ethics? (and here I am talking about the ethics taught by Christ in the bible and the proto-Christian communities, not what passes for Christianity these days)
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 9:01 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
...one cannot make a neat separation between the two
Do you believe that western secular ethics differ so greatly from Christian ethics? (and here I am talking about the ethics taught by Christ in the bible and the proto-Christian communities, not what passes for Christianity these days)
Of course not, that is exactly my point: the separation between religion and politics is very recent even in the West and the break wasn't clean. Outside the West the relation between religion and politics was very different.

Modern secular ethics adopts a lot of underlying assumptions that came from Western Christian morality especially with regard to the Continental Enlightenment thinkers (Kant, Hegel). I think the Scottish Enlightenment was more unique and made more departures from it although it too received some influence from Christian morals.

How is Socrates relevant? He proves my point -- religion was definitely a key factor in politics in his time.
Last edited by MiphamFan on Fri May 06, 2016 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Bakmoon » Fri May 06, 2016 9:10 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal

Religion definitely does play a role; it's not the only thing, but people who want to ignore its role either have an agenda or are being ignorant.
Daesh might well be compatible with some extreme interpretations of Wahhabism (the ultra-conservative form of Islam found in Saudi Arabia for example) but Wahhabism isn't normative Islam. Normative Sunni Islam for over a millennia has basically been equated with the four schools of jurisprudence (the Hanafi, Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools). Wahhabism (which originated as a violent movement in central Arabia under its founder Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab) is fundamentally in conflict with these four normative traditions, and Daesh is even more so outside the mainstream. There is legally binding consensus (ijma') within all four schools that you can't hurt Jews and Christians, and many other things that Daesh does.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 9:14 pm

ISIL in their official videos swear they never hurt Christians (don't think there are Jews in their territory) as long as they pay jizya -- this is the same as what other schools of Islamic jurisprudence say when a Muslim regime is in control. Unofficially, I'm not sure, they probably charge exorbitant jizya to force Christians to flee anyway.

On the other hand they show no mercy to those they consider pagans -- the Yezidis. Yezidis are even monotheists too. Imagine what they will do to Buddhists. Other schools of sharia likewise show no tolerance for who they consider "pagans" -- bride kidnappings of Buddhist women are common in Ladakh and Burma.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 9:20 pm

Anyway, look, in the end, this doesn't matter much in terms of what we as individuals can do, unless one of us runs for office or something.

All we can do as individuals is not to vote for politicians who support interventions in the Middle East and to limit economic contributions to the Saudi economy. I think we all generally agree on that.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Fri May 06, 2016 9:23 pm

I think even though Daesh may claim some kind of religious reasoning behind their actions, it is really a simple tribal contest for power. This sort of brutality certainly doesn't need religious justification, the same shit happens in fascist states or with other cult like regimes, like Khmer Rouge or the Shining path.

I think over the next couple of years, maybe a decade at most Daesh will slowly lose territory and fade away. A lot of the attention they received is because of the Western recruits who went there looking for some fake ideological purity or adventure or utopia...that will dry up because they'll all get disappointed, since it is really hell.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 9:26 pm

ISIL is already losing ground, read the site I linked a few posts up: http://www.aymennjawad.org/18749/a-cali ... y-evidence

Radical Islamic terrorism on the other hand won't disappear for a while. It will last at least as long as Saudi still is able to sponsor radical preachers worldwide.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Bakmoon » Fri May 06, 2016 9:34 pm

MiphamFan wrote:ISIL is already losing ground, read the site I linked a few posts up: http://www.aymennjawad.org/18749/a-cali ... y-evidence

Radical Islamic terrorism on the other hand won't disappear for a while. It will last at least as long as Saudi still is able to sponsor radical preachers worldwide.
Agreed. The root of terrorism is Wahhabism.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Fri May 06, 2016 9:54 pm

In the end I just do not care about wether ISIS is "Islamic" or not. They're just wrong.

Societies like what they want do not work. A society in these modern times needs to be based on pluralism, liberalism, and mutual respect in order to flourish.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 06, 2016 10:10 pm

MiphamFan wrote:I judge Islam based on its role in tbe destruction of Buddhism in India, Central Asia and Southeast Asia.
I don't think you can really blame Islam for this. You should read:

Buddhism and Islam on the Silk Road (Encounters with Asia), Elverskog, Johan.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 06, 2016 10:13 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Please read ChNN as well as Sam van Schaik's work on pre-Buddhist Tibet. There was no systematized religion which was displaced....
That is not really correct, in my opinion. We just don't have good records of that period due to the amazing feat of cultural amnesia the Tibetan managed to pull off.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri May 06, 2016 10:16 pm

MiphamFan wrote:When pagan religions interacted with other pagan religions they were just syncretized.

Romans called the Celtic and Germanic gods by Latin names and absorbed them into their own cult system. Hinduism likewise absorbed tribal gods in India and Southeast Asia. Chinese gods likewise.

Buddhism did the same in Tibet; native gods were classified as part of the eight classes and absorbed.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy absorbed some native gods as saints too.

Desert semitic religions on the other hand destroyed all other cults. Judaism destroyed the different Canaanite cults and justified it by accusing them of human sacrifice (how true it is we have no proof); Islam destroyed all non-monotheistic cults within its regime.
You realise this is a gross oversimplification, don't you?
Firstly, what you call syncretization can have many faces. Historically speaking, it was hardly ever peaceful. Do talk to some Bonpo masters and ask them what the process of installing Buddhism in Tibet looked like. The is a reason while Lopon Tenzin Namdak and other central Bonpo figures do not quite like being called Buddhists: according to their narrative, the syncretization process you speak of was not quite so nice...

Christianity may have assimilated most pre Christian deities. It does not mean it was not at the same time persecuting the people who worshipped them outside the Christian dogma.

Secondly, as for absorbing "native gods as saints", you can count in Shia Islam and many strands of Sunni Islam as well -- and quite possibly Judaism, too.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 17, 2016 3:50 pm

Queequeg wrote:I think the borders in the region need to be redrawn. I think everyone in the region thinks this, though there is no agreement on how. Sunnis and Shi'a need to be separated.
Excellent overview and analysis of present conditions in the Middle East flowing from the rather arbitrary national borders drawn, literally in the sand, by two Europeans over 100 years ago.

Why 100-year-old borders drawn by two Europeans still define the Middle East
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 17, 2016 3:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Queequeg wrote:I think the borders in the region need to be redrawn. I think everyone in the region thinks this, though there is no agreement on how. Sunnis and Shi'a need to be separated.
Excellent overview and analysis of present conditions in the Middle East flowing from the rather arbitrary national borders drawn, literally in the sand, by two Europeans over 100 years ago.

Why 100-year-old borders drawn by two Europeans still define the Middle East

I think we need to throw Zors in their direction.

Image
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 17, 2016 4:41 pm

Malcolm wrote: I think we need to throw Zors in their direction.

Image
Google is referring me to zebra-horse hybrids. Whats a Zors? That looks like something Mohamed would have had an aneurysm over.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Tue May 17, 2016 4:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Malcolm wrote: I think we need to throw Zors in their direction.

Image
Google is referring me to zebra-horse hybrids. Whats a Zors? That looks like something Mohamed would have had an aneurysm over.
The term "zor" literally mean "sickle" in Tibet. It is a kind of pre-Buddhist rite used for mowing down one's enemies that has survived into Tibetan Buddhism from the pre-Buddhist period, mainly employed in the Nyingma school.

We can also sick the planetary demon Rahula (one of the Dzogchen wisdom protectors) on them:

Image
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Queequeg » Tue May 17, 2016 5:37 pm

An army of wrathful Buddhas and bodhisattvas advancing on Baghdad...

Make it so.
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