What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

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DGA
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:55 pm

I'm bumping this thread from last year with new context:

*Daesh is on the ropes in Syria and Iraq, but

*Daesh is re-establishing itself in Libya.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/daesh ... 1056900231

*Forgot to mention Boko Haram.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:58 pm

DGA wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:55 pm
I'm bumping this thread from last year with new context:

*Daesh is on the ropes in Syria and Iraq, but

*Daesh is re-establishing itself in Libya.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/daesh ... 1056900231

*Forgot to mention Boko Haram.
They also popped up in the Philippines.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Minobu
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:02 pm

well first up we need to know what exactly is Islamic Extremism ..what is it they read that turns them into human bombs.
No one tells you exactly what it is they are told and where it comes from...

we take this knowledge and go global with it...governments pay to have documentaries about it...teaching kids it's wrong..
unfortunately i do not know what it is so like maybe they cannot make documentaries about it for it could be politically incorrect and the world just has to live with this forever.

we might offend people ...it's very hard to understand.

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Malcolm
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:02 pm
well first up we need to know what exactly is Islamic Extremism ..what is it they read that turns them into human bombs.
No one tells you exactly what it is they are told and where it comes from...

we take this knowledge and go global with it...governments pay to have documentaries about it...teaching kids it's wrong..
unfortunately i do not know what it is so like maybe they cannot make documentaries about it for it could be politically incorrect and the world just has to live with this forever.

we might offend people ...it's very hard to understand.

It's not about Islam, not really. The minute people make Daesh about Islam, they lose sight of the real situation.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:02 pm
well first up we need to know what exactly is Islamic Extremism ..what is it they read that turns them into human bombs.
No one tells you exactly what it is they are told and where it comes from...

we take this knowledge and go global with it...governments pay to have documentaries about it...teaching kids it's wrong..
unfortunately i do not know what it is so like maybe they cannot make documentaries about it for it could be politically incorrect and the world just has to live with this forever.

we might offend people ...it's very hard to understand.

It's not about Islam, not really. The minute people make Daesh about Islam, they lose sight of the real situation.
yeah i get that is what islamists say...but what is extremist islamists..
what do they use to set them apart from other islamists .
there has to be some sort of interpretation from koran...a messed up one i guess..
but you tell me then...what are they told that could possibly make them do what they do.

we call them extremist islamists for a reason..even they accept the terms...to them it's like yeah we know we really know...

this whole vagueness is weird in and of itself...

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 pm
Minobu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:02 pm
well first up we need to know what exactly is Islamic Extremism ..what is it they read that turns them into human bombs.
No one tells you exactly what it is they are told and where it comes from...

we take this knowledge and go global with it...governments pay to have documentaries about it...teaching kids it's wrong..
unfortunately i do not know what it is so like maybe they cannot make documentaries about it for it could be politically incorrect and the world just has to live with this forever.

we might offend people ...it's very hard to understand.

It's not about Islam, not really. The minute people make Daesh about Islam, they lose sight of the real situation.
yeah i get that is what islamists say...but what is extremist islamists..
what do they use to set them apart from other islamists .
there has to be some sort of interpretation from koran...a messed up one i guess..
but you tell me then...what are they told that could possibly make them do what they do.

we call them extremist islamists for a reason..even they accept the terms...to them it's like yeah we know we really know...

this whole vagueness is weird in and of itself...
It is Saudi Islam. No other countries are like the Saudis.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Malcolm
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:08 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:42 pm

It is Saudi Islam.
Not really. Daesh is comprised of madmen, whose minds have been possessed by demons.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Grigoris
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:24 pm

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/amp/e ... -0009.html
As ISIS Flees, Syrian Troops Find Arms Cache From US, NATO
“We have encountered a huge arsenal of advanced U.S., British and Belgian weaponry,” said Syrian General Hasan Suhel.

The Syrian Armed Forces have discovered a large cache of military arsenal from Western countries, particularly from the United States, left behind by the Islamic State group as its forces fled the city of al-Mayadin in the east of the country, according to Sputnik.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Sherab » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:48 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri May 06, 2016 8:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.
Saying Daesh represents one strand of Islamic thinking is one thing. Saying it is Islamic thinking tout court, or the logical terminus of Islamic thought and practice, as some have done at DW, is highly problematic.

Daesh is more productively understood as a political problem than a religious one. It's a political problem spoken in religious discourse, and with many religious inflections. How to address the political problem at the root of it?
Islam governs all aspects of a believer's life, be it, religious, cultural, social or political. Any problem issuing from Islam such as Daesh cannot be properly addressed without addressing all aspects of it. To isolate the Daesh problem as a political one and address only that is likely cutting of the leaves of a weed and leaving its roots intact. It will never work.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:13 am

Sherab wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:48 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri May 06, 2016 8:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.
Saying Daesh represents one strand of Islamic thinking is one thing. Saying it is Islamic thinking tout court, or the logical terminus of Islamic thought and practice, as some have done at DW, is highly problematic.

Daesh is more productively understood as a political problem than a religious one. It's a political problem spoken in religious discourse, and with many religious inflections. How to address the political problem at the root of it?
Islam governs all aspects of a believer's life, be it, religious, cultural, social or political. Any problem issuing from Islam such as Daesh cannot be properly addressed without addressing all aspects of it. To isolate the Daesh problem as a political one and address only that is likely cutting of the leaves of a weed and leaving its roots intact. It will never work.
You are claiming that it is necessary to refute or rebut the professed religious views of Daesh adherents in order to somehow disarm or dissuade them from acting out. By that logic, it would have been adequate to explain to the Nazis that their ideas were inferior, and not fight them with bullets. Or to convert the leadership of the Confederacy away from the bizarre variant of Protestantism they upheld. Does that seem plausible to you?

The Soviet Union didn't fail because the John Birch Society published some anti-Communist bromides. It fell because it was planned, organized, and led by Russians, while opposed by nearly everyone else. You can attempt to prove me wrong on this point in a separate thread. My point is that this is about power, not about ideology except insofar as ideology serves power.

Frankly, I find Malcolm's argument more convincing, and it relies on the supernatural:
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:42 pm

It is Saudi Islam.
Not really. Daesh is comprised of madmen, whose minds have been possessed by demons.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 am

postscript:

Think of the case in Burma (Myanmar) at the present moment. We have a fraction of the Buddhist community there calling for and enacting what looks to me like genocide against a civilian population. If the goal is to stop that program of violence, then is it adequate to convert those professed Buddhists leading it to, say, convert to some happy Protestantism?

viewtopic.php?f=9&p=412400#p412391

No, that's a stupid idea, because Buddha Dharma obviously isn't at the root of this violence, even though those perpetrating it profess themselves to be followers of Buddha's teaching.

Similarly for the idea that the problem of Daesh is an Islam problem. Daesh is a political program in religious clothes, just like the campaign against the Rohingya in Burma, just like the KKK, just like the John Birch Society, just like the Tea Party...

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:11 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 am
postscript:

Think of the case in Burma (Myanmar) at the present moment. We have a fraction of the Buddhist community there calling for and enacting what looks to me like genocide against a civilian population. If the goal is to stop that program of violence, then is it adequate to convert those professed Buddhists leading it to, say, convert to some happy Protestantism?

viewtopic.php?f=9&p=412400#p412391

No, that's a stupid idea, because Buddha Dharma obviously isn't at the root of this violence, even though those perpetrating it profess themselves to be followers of Buddha's teaching.

Similarly for the idea that the problem of Daesh is an Islam problem. Daesh is a political program in religious clothes, just like the campaign against the Rohingya in Burma, just like the KKK, just like the John Birch Society, just like the Tea Party...
I have some problems with the comparison. The Islamic state very clearly bases itself on certain doctrines they get from the quran and the hadith, and I haven't seen a Buddhist justification for what goes on in Myanmar. Doesn't mean there isn't, but I haven't encountered it.

Sometimes religion comes in unpalatable forms. We try to pussyfoot around this fact, but it's true. The extremist evangelical Christians, Buddhist sects that promoted kamikaze attacks in WW2, and yes IS are all forms of religion. Sometimes religion sucks. Our task is to get rid of the stuff that sucks and promote the good.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Sherab » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:20 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:13 am
... My point is that this is about power, not about ideology except insofar as ideology serves power.....
I think you just argued against your position.

The Daesh ideology is what gives it power. It is what animates Daesh. Diminish the power of that ideology and you will diminish its hold on the minds of those held in thrall by it. Because the ideology governs all aspects of life of its members, you have to address the religious, social, economic, political and cultural factors that were used to justify Daesh actions as seen through that ideological lens. You cannot just address one factor and think that will work.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:44 am

i say bring to light exactly what they are teaching young recruits...focus on teaching those kids ...but first it needs to be as global as everyone in the world thinks trump is an idiot. and talks about it.

every cup of coffee in every donut shop one is in earshot of someone talking about trump..once this sort of thing is that common place and people talk why and what the kids are being told...it dies....peters out like the mod look of the 60's...
what ever crap they are brainwashing the kids with...needs to be known globally...

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:46 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:11 am
Our task is to get rid of the stuff that sucks and promote the good.
:thumbsup:

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:54 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 am

No, that's a stupid idea, because Buddha Dharma obviously isn't at the root of this violence, even though those perpetrating it profess themselves to be followers of Buddha's teaching.
I'm sure some do profess that, but my guess is the vast majority were born into Buddhism just as most people in the UK may be born by default into Christianity. It is what UK folk may put on their census forms, but any understanding of, and adherence to, the teachings is very rare indeed. I haven't seen the stats but I'm willing to believe that those involved will, at best, pay lip service to Buddhism before breakfast and then trot off to work and burn a few people out of their homes.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:32 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:54 am
DGA wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 am

No, that's a stupid idea, because Buddha Dharma obviously isn't at the root of this violence, even though those perpetrating it profess themselves to be followers of Buddha's teaching.
I'm sure some do profess that, but my guess is the vast majority were born into Buddhism just as most people in the UK may be born by default into Christianity. It is what UK folk may put on their census forms, but any understanding of, and adherence to, the teachings is very rare indeed. I haven't seen the stats but I'm willing to believe that those involved will, at best, pay lip service to Buddhism before breakfast and then trot off to work and burn a few people out of their homes.
i believe the same thing happened in Sri Lanka ...there are accusations of horrid things done to Tamils with Buddhist Monks standing by as witness..
could be propaganda , but there was war between the ruling class that is Buddhist and the Tamils who want there own homeland on the Island.
lots of vague and sometimes stuff like this being told to me by Tamils...A Buddhist monk stood by as people poured gasoline on a Tamil woman and set her on fire.....tons of stories like that...could and hopefully is just propaganda ...

quite possibly the Myanmar government sees the same threat of annexation of land ..and pre empted a strike.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:32 pm
i believe the same thing happened in Sri Lanka ...there are accusations of horrid things done to Tamils with Buddhist Monks standing by as witness..
could be propaganda , but there was war between the ruling class that is Buddhist and the Tamils who want there own homeland on the Island.
lots of vague and sometimes stuff like this being told to me by Tamils...A Buddhist monk stood by as people poured gasoline on a Tamil woman and set her on fire.....tons of stories like that...could and hopefully is just propaganda ...

quite possibly the Myanmar government sees the same threat of annexation of land ..and pre empted a strike.
No, it is not propaganda. I have friends that worked in humanitarian organisations in north Sri Lanka and in northern Burma. They saw the shit with their own eyes. It is real.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mantrik » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:52 pm

Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:54 am
DGA wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:24 am

No, that's a stupid idea, because Buddha Dharma obviously isn't at the root of this violence, even though those perpetrating it profess themselves to be followers of Buddha's teaching.
I'm sure some do profess that, but my guess is the vast majority were born into Buddhism just as most people in the UK may be born by default into Christianity. It is what UK folk may put on their census forms, but any understanding of, and adherence to, the teachings is very rare indeed. I haven't seen the stats but I'm willing to believe that those involved will, at best, pay lip service to Buddhism before breakfast and then trot off to work and burn a few people out of their homes.
i believe the same thing happened in Sri Lanka ...there are accusations of horrid things done to Tamils with Buddhist Monks standing by as witness..
could be propaganda , but there was war between the ruling class that is Buddhist and the Tamils who want there own homeland on the Island.
lots of vague and sometimes stuff like this being told to me by Tamils...A Buddhist monk stood by as people poured gasoline on a Tamil woman and set her on fire.....tons of stories like that...could and hopefully is just propaganda ...

quite possibly the Myanmar government sees the same threat of annexation of land ..and pre empted a strike.
So many people ordain I'm not at all sure how many are really serious practitioners amongst them, especially when you have temporary ordinations and boys just sent to be monks by their families. Such a mixture. I'd be astounded if monks hadn't committed every type of violent crime known, in many different countries.
Then again, some monks may think it right not to intervene with another person's karma ripening. Pacifism though, should be about least harm, not about refusing to defend people.
One excuse I heard from a bloke in monk's robes, parroting his teacher, was that we should not intervene (as a girl was getting attacked in the street below) as our role is to become enlightened for the benefit of all beings and so should not be distracted or put ourselves at risk. Brainwashed idiot.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Minobu » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:47 pm
Minobu wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:32 pm
i believe the same thing happened in Sri Lanka ...there are accusations of horrid things done to Tamils with Buddhist Monks standing by as witness..
could be propaganda , but there was war between the ruling class that is Buddhist and the Tamils who want there own homeland on the Island.
lots of vague and sometimes stuff like this being told to me by Tamils...A Buddhist monk stood by as people poured gasoline on a Tamil woman and set her on fire.....tons of stories like that...could and hopefully is just propaganda ...

quite possibly the Myanmar government sees the same threat of annexation of land ..and pre empted a strike.
No, it is not propaganda. I have friends that worked in humanitarian organisations in north Sri Lanka and in northern Burma. They saw the shit with their own eyes. It is real.
nightmare...I guess the Sera Monks who had guns come from the same dark corner. this murderous hatred knows no bounds...
you would think that it would be a much smaller scale...like an anomaly rather than a national effort.

how do you throw out all the teachings and go and do stuff like that...the Tamils said the Buddhist were there to egg on and make like it's ok to pour gasoline on a woman ....

just an add on..Canada gave omar Khadr the 15 year old admitted to tossing a grenade at an american soldier...they gave him 10 million bucks for time served in Gitmo.
the other day it was revealed we gave 10 million each to three guys which the Canadian government told america were terrorists and they got deported to syria for torture ...apparently governments sent lots of people to Syria for torture ...
thanks to Justin Trudeau our PM the truth is told...

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