What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 05, 2016 7:51 pm

Fa Dao wrote:why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor? Why is it so hard to believe that there are people that whole-heartedly believe in that ideology? ISIS isnt just made up of people who are pissed off poor people who blame the west for their situation. There are huge numbers of them who are educated and come from middle class and above socio-economic backgrounds.

Oh sure that's part of it, but there are all kinds of ideologies that people kill for. Islamism in that way is no different from what Communism was not that long ago. So pretending that ideology is THE causative factor is silly, very shortsighted, and historically myopic IMO.

Again though, regardless of class, the Islamist dream looks compelling because the alternative is not convincing to these people. It stands to reason that if it were, that would change the dynamic.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 7:53 pm

This is Ali al-Imir...
Ali al-Nimir.jpg
Ali al-Nimir.jpg (82.53 KiB) Viewed 986 times
He was 17 years old when he was arrested by the Saudi authorities (about four years ago).

He was then sentenced to be tortured (during which time a confession was obtained).

He is due to be beheaded and his lifeless corpse will then be crucified and put on public display.

His crime? Protesting for democracy and being related to an anti-monarchist Shiite cleric.

Now the Saudi government though, they are our friends. Of course it is completely irrelevant that the Twin Towers fiasco was financed by Saudi's in positions of power, we'll just overlook that fact. Daesh though, they are our enemies. Of course it is completely irrelevant that they are funded by Saudi's in positions of power, we'll just overlook that fact.

So what to do about Daesh?
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Qing Tian » Thu May 05, 2016 8:00 pm

Beliefs, dangerous things to hold.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 8:04 pm

Fa Dao wrote:why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor?
I guess the fact that the huge (almost absolute) majority of Muslims are peaceful and law-abiding humans (and condemn the blood-thirsty actions of Daesh etc... as anti-Islamic) has completely bypassed you?
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 05, 2016 8:48 pm

Supposedly, a large faction of ISIS are former Iraqi Baathists.

The second biggest mistake the US made after invading Iraq was debaathification. Basically, disenfranchised all the Iraqi military officers, bureaucrats and middle class in one fell swoop.

These are the people who fought the Sunni insurgency against the US and the Shia government, and by twists and turns, now make up the core of ISIS.

Its probably why ISIS has the means to set up and operate some semblance of a state...

As far as I can tell, the reason angsty teenagers flock to join ISIS is the same reason kids go punk - Insolence and unbalanced hormones. "F the world!"

The difference is, going punk (at least in my day) involved getting stupid haircuts, dressing like a character from Mad Max and getting tatted up, and jumping in a mosh pit. Maybe running away to be a gutter punk in Portland. The dangers were you probably going to catch an STD, definitely scabies, and maybe an opiate habit. Going ISIS, s**t gets real, fast. It has all the hallmarks of a cult.

Quite a few stories of kids finding out how real ISIS is and trying to get home to mommy and daddy. They often don't make it.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by smcj » Thu May 05, 2016 9:09 pm

Two quick points:

I do not frequent jihadi websites, but I am of the impression that recruits are well paid. Think of them as mercenaries. Even a suicide bomber gets money for their family. Add in sex, power, and prestige and you've got the complete cocktail for the worldly dharmas. (But I don't know for sure that's their motivation.)

But more importantly, we who are removed from the danger zone should be wary of getting too emotionally involved. Firstly it is an unnecessary karmic entanglement with a septic whirlpool of negativity. And also, contrary to a lot of common wisdom, hate can be quite seductive and enjoyable. "If they are bad and I hate them that makes me good". It is the seduction of self-love, which is contrary to what Dharma is about. Instead we should appreciate our "Precious Human Rebirth" and make the most of our freedom, 'cause the people in Syria and Iraq sure don't have the luxery to develop their minds.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Thu May 05, 2016 9:51 pm

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Thu May 05, 2016 9:53 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor?
I guess the fact that the huge (almost absolute) majority of Muslims are peaceful and law-abiding humans (and condemn the blood-thirsty actions of Daesh etc... as anti-Islamic) has completely bypassed you?
Already jumping on that bandwagon are you? Relax Dr. PC...Never said I disagreed with that..in fact, probably only 1 % of moslims follow and believe in islam that strictly...problem is, 1% of 1.6 billion..well, do the math...
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 10:09 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Already jumping on that bandwagon are you?
And here is me thinking that Muslim bashing was the populist bandwagon (ala Trump).
Never said I disagreed with that..in fact, probably only 1 % of moslims follow and believe in islam that strictly...problem is, 1% of 1.6 billion..well, do the math...
Daesh do not strictly observe the tenets of Islam, if they did they wouldn't be killing Muslims and Christians seeing how it is forbidden to do so.

As for the "Dr. PC" bullshit, please refrain from ad homs if you wish to continue a civil and courteous conversation with me.

It is not PC to recognise reality.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 05, 2016 10:29 pm

A try at answering the question...

What actors are doing now... militarily trying to take back the territory. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that this summer is going to be really violent in that region.

I'm afraid, though, that the war between Sunni and Shi'a is going to get hotter before it cools off. Will Iran and Saudi Arabia risk all out war with each other over control of the region? Very unlikely. Drawing Iran into the international community will hopefully give them incentive to not escalate. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, may get more hostile the more their economy suffers from low oil prices.

I think the borders in the region need to be redrawn. I think everyone in the region thinks this, though there is no agreement on how. Sunnis and Shi'a need to be separated. There also needs to be a generation of cessation to hostilities to let emotions cool, let wounds scar over. In an ideal world, have a massive truth and reconciliation, including the US at the table. It will never happen because there are too many actors who would lose in a peace brokered by the major powers in the region. It would take a tremendous will on the part of the powers to resist getting drawn into war by the various groups who will use every terrorist tactic in the book to disrupt any peace.

I think the best hope for the Middle East is for examples of peace and prosperity in the region to fill people's imagination - for TV shows and movies about ordinary life where people can see something better.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 11:05 pm

smcj wrote:Two quick points:

I do not frequent jihadi websites, but I am of the impression that recruits are well paid. Think of them as mercenaries.
So their motivation for joining ISIS is the same as that for US army recruits?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Thu May 05, 2016 11:06 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Already jumping on that bandwagon are you?
And here is me thinking that Muslim bashing was the populist bandwagon (ala Trump).
Never said I disagreed with that..in fact, probably only 1 % of moslims follow and believe in islam that strictly...problem is, 1% of 1.6 billion..well, do the math...
Daesh do not strictly observe the tenets of Islam, if they did they wouldn't be killing Muslims and Christians seeing how it is forbidden to do so.

As for the "Dr. PC" bullshit, please refrain from ad homs if you wish to continue a civil and courteous conversation with me.

It is not PC to recognise reality.
Yeah..whatever dude...you want to sling sarcasm but dont like it slung back at you..just like when you were a mod....and as for ISIS, everything they do is backed up by a literalist rendering of the koran and hadiths....you might want to give them a read PRIOR to commenting further about ISIS doing things that are forbidden
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by smcj » Thu May 05, 2016 11:10 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:Two quick points:

I do not frequent jihadi websites, but I am of the impression that recruits are well paid. Think of them as mercenaries.
So their motivation for joining ISIS is the same as that for US army recruits?
More like joining the "Blackwater" company of American "contractors", a.k.a. well paid mercenaries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
Last edited by smcj on Thu May 05, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 11:12 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Yeah..whatever dude...you want to sling sarcasm but dont like it slung back at you..just like when you were a mod....and as for ISIS, everything they do is backed up by a literalist rendering of the koran and hadiths....you might want to give them a read PRIOR to commenting further about ISIS doing things that are forbidden
I pointed out a fact, you replied with an ad hom, you are continuing with ad homs.
SURA 109. Kafirun, or Those who reject Faith
1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.
So what would be the literalist reading of that? Go out and kill everybody that does not agree with you?
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 05, 2016 11:26 pm

smcj wrote:More like joining the "Blackwater" company of American "contractors", a.k.a. well paid mercenaries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
The US army is a mercenary army. Basic active duty pay (ie with no experience) starts off at $18,500 plus extras. Granted that is pretty low. A police officer gets, on average, $48,000. But you have to take into account that the median wage in the US is around $26,000. So the incentives to join the US army for an uneducated male are pretty high.

Now Blackwater mercenaries can get up to ten times that amount of money (in 2004), but I find it unlikely that ISIS militants are getting paid $185,000.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Arjan Dirkse » Thu May 05, 2016 11:52 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
smcj wrote:More like joining the "Blackwater" company of American "contractors", a.k.a. well paid mercenaries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
The US army is a mercenary army. Basic active duty pay (ie with no experience) starts off at $18,500 plus extras. Granted that is pretty low. A police officer gets, on average, $48,000. But you have to take into account that the median wage in the US is around $26,000. So the incentives to join the US army for an uneducated male are pretty high.

Now Blackwater mercenaries can get up to ten times that amount of money (in 2004), but I find it unlikely that ISIS militants are getting paid $185,000.
I think they're being paid something like 600 dollars a month.

What to do about Daesh? Eat rice, then wash your plate, or something. I think we have to assist local forces that are fighting them, like the Iraqi government, the Peshmerga, maybe some rebel factions in Syria which are palatable. Other than that I believe we have to let these societies mend themselves, eventually that is the best bet. In societies that function well this madness doesn't happen, or it happens less anyway.

It's a long term problem. Violence happens sometimes, it does everywhere. It's a recurrent thing in samsara.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by smcj » Fri May 06, 2016 12:01 am

...but I find it unlikely that ISIS militants are getting paid $185,000.
You're right. Google seems to think $600/mo plus looting privileges.

http://time.com/money/4185726/isis-fighters-pay-cut/
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Fri May 06, 2016 12:48 am

Here are some verses that are used by ISIS to justify what they do:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 06, 2016 1:11 am

have you ever read the Old Testament? It is nearly as bloody pound for pound. Some of the most objectionable statements in the Koran have similar precedents in the Torah. So clearly, there is more at play than religious texts and corresponding tenets.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mkoll » Fri May 06, 2016 3:18 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Scott Atran suggests that the reason so many (formerly atheist, or Christian, or agnostic, etc) young Westerners flock to the Daesh is that they realise or half-realise that in our cherished treasure chests there is only fools' gold. I wholeheartedly concur. Ours is a broken, thoroughly corrupt culture, and these may well be the final days of our Rome.
There are plenty of aspects in our culture that are not corrupt. For example, from an American's perspective, and in general (of course there are exceptions): respect for the rule of law, freedom of thought, relatively little corruption, a strong work ethic, high regard for education, charitableness, an entrepreneurial spirit, and an optimistic can-do attitude. Sure, there are corrupt aspects too, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And seriously comparing our values with those of the totalitarian and psychopathic Daesh is absurd.

A recurring theme in this conversation, people conflating very nebulous "values" that you might find (for example) in a neighbor you like, with the "values" that drive the actions of state and corporate entities - the ones who actually determine policy, and to a large degree influence people's thinking as well.

There are some fantastic things about America, but they don't come from our power structures at all, and never have.
It seems like you are conflating. I am talking about cultural values, not state or corporate entities or "a neighbor you like."

And they are not nebulous in that they lead to concrete results. Look at the list I wrote and brainstorm some of the real-world actions that spring from such values. You might be surprised.
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