What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 06, 2016 4:52 am

Mkoll wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mkoll wrote: There are plenty of aspects in our culture that are not corrupt. For example, from an American's perspective, and in general (of course there are exceptions): respect for the rule of law, freedom of thought, relatively little corruption, a strong work ethic, high regard for education, charitableness, an entrepreneurial spirit, and an optimistic can-do attitude. Sure, there are corrupt aspects too, but you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And seriously comparing our values with those of the totalitarian and psychopathic Daesh is absurd.

A recurring theme in this conversation, people conflating very nebulous "values" that you might find (for example) in a neighbor you like, with the "values" that drive the actions of state and corporate entities - the ones who actually determine policy, and to a large degree influence people's thinking as well.

There are some fantastic things about America, but they don't come from our power structures at all, and never have.
It seems like you are conflating. I am talking about cultural values, not state or corporate entities or "a neighbor you like."

And they are not nebulous in that they lead to concrete results. Look at the list I wrote and brainstorm some of the real-world actions that spring from such values. You might be surprised.

You're missing my point, you re taking these broad values and acting like they are somehow related to a critique you don't like of US realpolitik and foreign policy, they aren't. No one is saying "Americans are bad" by saying American foreign policy is responsible for many problems.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 7:05 am

Fa Dao wrote:Here are some verses that are used by ISIS to justify what they do:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx
Those are some verses used by Islamophobes to justify their hatred of Muslims.

Here are some verses (note the size of the list) that are used by certain Christians and Jews to justify their negative actions:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/ot_list.html
Thus all Christians and Jews are cruel and bloodthirsty murderous lunatics.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Mkoll » Fri May 06, 2016 7:39 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:

A recurring theme in this conversation, people conflating very nebulous "values" that you might find (for example) in a neighbor you like, with the "values" that drive the actions of state and corporate entities - the ones who actually determine policy, and to a large degree influence people's thinking as well.

There are some fantastic things about America, but they don't come from our power structures at all, and never have.
It seems like you are conflating. I am talking about cultural values, not state or corporate entities or "a neighbor you like."

And they are not nebulous in that they lead to concrete results. Look at the list I wrote and brainstorm some of the real-world actions that spring from such values. You might be surprised.

You're missing my point, you re taking these broad values and acting like they are somehow related to a critique you don't like of US realpolitik and foreign policy, they aren't. No one is saying "Americans are bad" by saying American foreign policy is responsible for many problems.
On the contrary, you are completely missing my point. I haven't said anything about US foreign policy—go back and read my words more carefully if you don't believe me. The leap of logic from what I've written to "US realpolitik and foreign policy" is mind-boggling.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri May 06, 2016 8:13 am

Mkoll wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mkoll wrote: It seems like you are conflating. I am talking about cultural values, not state or corporate entities or "a neighbor you like."

And they are not nebulous in that they lead to concrete results. Look at the list I wrote and brainstorm some of the real-world actions that spring from such values. You might be surprised.

You're missing my point, you re taking these broad values and acting like they are somehow related to a critique you don't like of US realpolitik and foreign policy, they aren't. No one is saying "Americans are bad" by saying American foreign policy is responsible for many problems.
On the contrary, you are completely missing my point. I haven't said anything about US foreign policy—go back and read my words more carefully if you don't believe me. The leap of logic from what I've written to "US realpolitik and foreign policy" is mind-boggling.
OK, continue to boggle I guess.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Fa Dao » Fri May 06, 2016 4:55 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:Here are some verses that are used by ISIS to justify what they do:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages ... lence.aspx
Those are some verses used by Islamophobes to justify their hatred of Muslims.

Here are some verses (note the size of the list) that are used by certain Christians and Jews to justify their negative actions:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/ot_list.html
Thus all Christians and Jews are cruel and bloodthirsty murderous lunatics.
Nice try...was wondering when you were going to throw out the "islamophobe" label...at least you were smart enough not to use the word "racist" (especially since islam is not a race but an ideology) a "phobia" is an irrational or unreasonable fear of something...I know its hard to fathom but a person can have a issues with the ideology of islam, especially after reading through their "holy" books, yet still have no hatred or judgement against muslims...the OP's question was "What to do about Daesh?" In order to "do" something about it one needs to understand where they are coming from...
And speaking of going off subject..bringing up christians and jews? really? seriously? Seems to be a common justification nowadays..problem is with that rationale, is that first off that wasnt part of the OP's question and secondly how many christian/jewish armies are out taking over large swaths of the middle east, cutting the heads off of disbelievers, throwing gays off of rooftops, and capturing/selling women as sexual slaves?? Why is it so difficult to believe that these guys actually believe in what they are doing? The leader of ISIS is a highly educated islamic scholar and backs up everything they do with their own scriptures....and if you try to come back with "he is just twisting the words etc etc" then obviously you have not read the koran, hadiths and sira...thats not to say however that these books dont contain words of peace and beauty as well its just that they are also chock full of violence towards disbelievers, misogyny, and totalitarian ideology.
So, to answer the OP's question...the first thing we have to do is understand them on their terms, using their words/actions, not giving in to "white guilt" and saying its all due to "western/US imperialism/colonialism etc etc" thats not to say that those things havent played a minor part but they are not the primary reasons behind what they are doing.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 06, 2016 5:25 pm

Fa Dao wrote:why is no one taking into consideration islamist ideology as a causative factor? Why is it so hard to believe that there are people that whole-heartedly believe in that ideology? ISIS isnt just made up of people who are pissed off poor people who blame the west for their situation. There are huge numbers of them who are educated and come from middle class and above socio-economic backgrounds.
These people generally have a very poor understanding of their own religion, just as most Buddhists do.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 5:43 pm

Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal

Religion definitely does play a role; it's not the only thing, but people who want to ignore its role either have an agenda or are being ignorant.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 5:57 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Nice try...was wondering when you were going to throw out the "islamophobe" label...at least you were smart enough not to use the word "racist" (especially since islam is not a race but an ideology) a "phobia" is an irrational or unreasonable fear of something...I know its hard to fathom but a person can have a issues with the ideology of islam, especially after reading through their "holy" books, yet still have no hatred or judgement against muslims...the OP's question was "What to do about Daesh?" In order to "do" something about it one needs to understand where they are coming from...
Your critique of Daesh begins with a critique of Islam, that makes you an Islamophobe. It is more than possible to critique Daesh WITHOUT resorting to (the current populist craze of) Islam bashing.
And speaking of going off subject..bringing up christians and jews? really? seriously?
Just in case you didn't know: Jews, Christians and Muslims are all members of Abrahamic religions. They all worship the same God and share holy books.
...secondly how many christian/jewish armies are out taking over large swaths of the middle east...
Does the use of barrel bombs against civilians, proxy armies (doing the beheading, etc...) and other nastiness count as abhorrent atrocities? What about bombing hospitals run by western volunteer groups? Has the situation in occupied Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria not registered on your radar at all?
Why is it so difficult to believe that these guys actually believe in what they are doing?
Nobody said that they don't believe in what the are doing. People use all sorts of things to justify their greed, anger, hatred, etc...
...then obviously you have not read the koran, hadiths and sira...
I have read the Koran, I haven't read all the accompanying commentaries, you obviously have and that is what has lead you to present and attack a distorted caricature of Islam, right?
...thats not to say however that these books dont contain words of peace and beauty as well its just that they are also chock full of violence towards disbelievers, misogyny, and totalitarian ideology.
Just like the rest of the Abrahamic texts, right? Do you know anything about the history of the Jewish people? Read the Old Testament. Do you know anything about the history of Christianity? Have you heard about the Crusades (both internal and external)? The pogroms against gay men and witches? The pogroms against the Jews? The destruction of ancient religions? They set the example. Do you know about the Christian iconoclast movement and wars? Christians were pretty damn good at defacing Christian monuments too, let alone temples to the ancient gods. What about those monuments to western Christian civilisation known as WWI and WWII? 15-18,000,000 dead in WWI and 75-80,000,000 dead in WWII.
So, to answer the OP's question...the first thing we have to do is understand them on their terms, using their words/actions, not giving in to "white guilt"...
I'm not all that white, so white guilt is not something I suffer from.

One of the main reasons that I do not suffer from Islamophobia is that I have traveled extensively in Muslim countries. Turkey is just across the way from here. From my sitting room I can see the cars travel ling along the roads and the lights from the houses. Actually I just got back from (yet another) 5 day jaunt there. How extensive is your contact with Muslims?
...and saying its all due to "western/US imperialism/colonialism etc etc" thats not to say that those things havent played a minor part...
A MINOR part??? Do you know anything about the Armistice of Mudros and its effect on the Middle East? Essentially Western powers have been colonising and screwing with the Middle East since Alexander the Great. That's about 2400 years (just in case you didn't know).
Last edited by Grigoris on Fri May 06, 2016 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Malcolm » Fri May 06, 2016 6:00 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 6:09 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Religion definitely does play a role; it's not the only thing, but people who want to ignore its role either have an agenda or are being ignorant.
Judging and condemning Islam and Muslims, in general, because of the actions of Daesh is like judging and condemning Christianity and Christians due to the actions of Falangists, or judging and condemning Judaism and Jews due to the actions of Sabbateans. As a logical fallacy it is referred to as post hoc ergo propter hoc.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 6:41 pm

I judge Islam based on its role in tbe destruction of Buddhism in India, Central Asia and Southeast Asia.

I don't hate Muslims though, I pity them and hope they will plant the seeds of liberation in their mind-streams.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 6:48 pm

MiphamFan wrote:I judge Islam based on its role in tbe destruction of Buddhism in India, Central Asia and Southeast Asia.
Do you judge Hinduism (Brahmanism actually) for its role too?
I don't hate Muslims though, I pity them and hope they will plant the seeds of liberation in their mind-streams.
I'm sure the feel the same for you... :roll:
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Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Fri May 06, 2016 7:27 pm

MiphamFan wrote:I judge Islam based on its role in tbe destruction of Buddhism in India, Central Asia and Southeast Asia
To be honest, in its prime Buddhism did not exactly cherish the pre-Buddhist religious beliefs and practices of the cultures it came to dominate, either. It may well have been kinder to the rivals it vanquished than Islam, Christianity or Judaism were to their competition, but the spread of Buddhism was pretty ruthless as well. It is quite sufficient to check what the position of Bon was in Tibet before HHDL... It is possible that we do not hear about atrocities committed in the name of Buddhism simply because those who could speak have not been around for a very long time -- and their culture's "disappearance" was as thorough as the rather sudden "vanishing" of the pre-Christian world in Central and Eastern Europe...
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 7:40 pm

Please read ChNN as well as Sam van Schaik's work on pre-Buddhist Tibet. There was no systematized religion which was displaced; the gods and spirits were absorbed and syncretized, like pagan religions everywhere.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 7:48 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Please read ChNN as well as Sam van Schaik's work on pre-Buddhist Tibet. There was no systematized religion which was displaced; the gods and spirits were absorbed and syncretized, like pagan religions everywhere.
Everywhere???
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 7:51 pm

When pagan religions interacted with other pagan religions they were just syncretized.

Romans called the Celtic and Germanic gods by Latin names and absorbed them into their own cult system. Hinduism likewise absorbed tribal gods in India and Southeast Asia. Chinese gods likewise.

Buddhism did the same in Tibet; native gods were classified as part of the eight classes and absorbed.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy absorbed some native gods as saints too.

Desert semitic religions on the other hand destroyed all other cults. Judaism destroyed the different Canaanite cults and justified it by accusing them of human sacrifice (how true it is we have no proof); Islam destroyed all non-monotheistic cults within its regime.

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 06, 2016 8:10 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Catholicism and Orthodoxy absorbed some native gods as saints too.
Christianity is a desert semitic religion too. Just in case you didn't know. Jesus was a Jewish reformist (a Jew), remember?

Which "native gods" did they absorb as saints exactly?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Fri May 06, 2016 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
MiphamFan wrote:Abh Bakr al-Baghdadi has a PhD in Islamic studies. This guy is a Muslim who emphasizes the role of (a certain interpretation of) Islam in the role of ISIL which is just as justified as thato fmainstream Islamic jurisprudence: http://www.aymennjawad.org/?switch_site_version=normal
The issue is not whether ISIS represents a strand of Islamic thinking. It does. The point is that most people who are in ISIS have very little knowledge of Islam.

Whether or not it is as "justified" as other interpretations of Islam I will leave for Muslims to sort out.
Saying Daesh represents one strand of Islamic thinking is one thing. Saying it is Islamic thinking tout court, or the logical terminus of Islamic thought and practice, as some have done at DW, is highly problematic.

Daesh is more productively understood as a political problem than a religious one. It's a political problem spoken in religious discourse, and with many religious inflections. How to address the political problem at the root of it?

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 06, 2016 8:21 pm

Christianity was tempered by Neo-Platonism and Roman religion. The author of the Gospel of John for example definitely knew at least some Platonism.

St Brigid is the most obvious example. But also St Martin (Mars). St George (some British tribal leader).

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Re: What to do about Daesh? (ISIS, ISIL...)

Post by DGA » Fri May 06, 2016 8:23 pm

catmoon wrote:The only religious groups that have ever ceased to be a thorn in someone's side are ones like the Cathars and the Albigensians. They were both exterminated.

So the choices are: A) Genocide
B) Learn to put up with them
I think a better comparison is the Nazi Party. Nazi rule in Germany and Central Europe was brought to an end, even though some Nazis remained in the world (a lot of them, actually--someone had to run the country). There was no genocide against members of the Nazi party, and it was not necessary to learn how to put up with them.

I do not think it is an exaggeration to compare Daesh to the Nazis.

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