Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

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Vasana
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Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Vasana » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:18 pm

I didn't want to make this thread but I'm trying to gather opinion to inform my vote.

I have little faith that the decision is drastically important in comparison to the global issues of mass industrialisation, unsustainability and so on but of course there are obviously ethical implications to consider.

So what do you say and why?
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:44 pm

Before we start, I'm too young to vote.

However, I think we should stay in, the information is poor (mainly due to ad hominem attacks); my belief comes from personal feeling. I believe the EU helps with sustainability and globalisation.

I also worry about the ethics of leaving, like further xenophobia (UKIP increasing in power) and the fact that the previous head of MI6 said we should leave because we wouldn't have the European Convention of Human Rights, this worries me along with the new surveillance laws.


As a final note I will add these are mainly my personal opinions and I'm too young to vote :anjali:

Hope that ramble helped
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Losal Samten » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:12 pm

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:33 pm

I reckon if the British choose to leave the EU they should pack up their poxy island and piss off somewhere else, maybe somewhere closer to their mongloid offspring the US, just so the rest of us here in Europe don't have to listen to them crap on and whine endlessly afterwards. :tongue:
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by dreambow » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:24 pm

The more the main stream media, politicians and big business wring their hands....the more it needs to be scrutinized. Rules coming from Brussels seem to overwhelmingly favour the corporations....not the middle class and certainly not the man in the street.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:49 am

I have a generally low opinion of the EU, but the "leave" camp don't seem to make the best arguments either. The decision seems to be a complex one, I am not sure what to think about it.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Ayu » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:08 am

The EU is a kind of protection, at least it is trying to be.
I don't know, if he Britons ever had any advantage of their membership. They complained ever since the birth of EU. So, maybe it is time for them to experience, if life is better without EU.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:33 am

The UK should
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I have a generally low opinion of the EU, but the "leave" camp don't seem to make the best arguments either. The decision seems to be a complex one, I am not sure what to think about it.
The EU as it is profoundly dysfunctional. And it serves the interests of the (financial) elites at the cost of what is the contemporary equivalent of both the working class and the middle class. Leaving, however, would be simply disastrous both for the UK and the rest of the EU. Brexit is more than likely set in motion a domino effect that would lead in time to the collapse of the EU. And we need the EU because:

(1) it is easier to transform an existing complex multinational structure than build another one from scratch, especially right now, when nationalism and xenophobia are on the rise, and

(2) we do need a multinational European organisation, and badly so -- as Adenauer and other realised so very well after the horrors of the Great War and WWII. Then there are also

(3) Putin's imperial dreams to consider, as is

(4) the fact that the divided Europe will become -- politically, economically and ideologically -- even more insignificant on the global scene than it is now.

(5) Last but not least, the EU might yet prove the very last bulwark against the trending semi-fascist or openly fascist parties and governments within the EU.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:56 am

Ayu wrote:The EU is a kind of protection, at least it is trying to be.
I don't know, if he Britons ever had any advantage of their membership. They complained ever since the birth of EU. So, maybe it is time for them to experience, if life is better without EU.
I think the UK just complains about everything though :tongue:
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:43 am

Ayu wrote:I don't know, if he Britons ever had any advantage of their membership.
Of course they did: tax free trade (imports) with an independent (and stronger) currency and visa free travel are two advantages that I am aware of. I am sure there are more.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Ayu » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:28 pm

Often in life we realise the advantages, when they're gone.

:thinking: Let's cross fingers that all this recent nationalism on this planet will be debunked as a non-functional tool soon. May it shrink to nothing as soon as possible.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by AlexMcLeod » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:44 pm

The real question is, will they be allowed to leave if they so decided. Or will the EU follow the US example, and keep them by force?
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:59 pm

AlexMcLeod wrote:The real question is, will they be allowed to leave if they so decided. Or will the EU follow the US example, and keep them by force?
Yeah... If they decide to leave Greece will invade them and steal all their cod and chips!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by srivijaya » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:17 pm

Vasana wrote:So what do you say and why?
I don't think the EU is perfect and I agree with the points made by treehuggingoctopus on this one. But I also find that the position of the Brexit camp doesn't add up if carefully considered.

The main issue for Brexit voters seems to be net migration, the narrative being that the UK needs to get full control of its borders. Brexit leaders imply that if the UK leaves, then immigration can be reduced to perhaps less than 100,000 - even to tens of thousands.

They claim (perhaps correctly) that's it's harder to recruit qualified people from non-EU states, than it is for non-working EU nationals to enter and claim benefits, or the services of our health service. So even the Brexit camp agree that non-EU nationals have a tougher time getting into the UK and have to meet our strict criteria. The implication being that our non-EU immigrants are vetted, qualified and needed for our economy.

Let's look at the figures: The most recent official figures put net migration from EU countries at 184,000 a year and non-EU at 188,000. Neither side dispute these figures.

More than half of these are vetted non-EU migrants. That's 188,000 people (that even the Brexit camp don't dispute) the UK requires. So let's imagine that the EU migrants were subjected to the same vetting criteria. We don't know how many would pass but judging by the high volume of qualified EU people who work in the UK, we can assume it would be a large percentage.

But let's be conservative and say that only roughly a third would have passed - say 60,000. That still leaves 248,000 net immigration into the UK. Add to this the "wonderful effect" on our economy that the Brexit leaders promise will happen if we leave the EU and there is a real incentive for migrants to continue to locate to the UK. So, there is zero prospect for a significant fall in net migration - just that the anti-migrant voting public will no longer be able to blame the EU and one wonders where their frustration will coalesce then?

The next issue is one of Sovereignty. A bit nebulous this but the Brexit camp seem to imply it means not letting Eurocrats tell us what to do. Allowing us to make our own laws and forge our own trade deals with the rest of the world. They conflate European regulations on trade with the European Court of Human Rights, which are two entirely different things. They conflate them for a good reason. They know that in order to continue to trade with the EU, the EU's regulations must and will still be met but the real agenda is to get out of the human rights legislation that we have played a great part in creating. This allows the UK to deport nasty individuals (which is the headline justification) but also to become "more competitive" - more like China - as one of our ministers recently claimed we needed to become. Anyone who cannot tell where this is heading, truly deserves all they get.

Trade deals aren't done in a nice way. Each side is out to get what it can. The UK as part of the EU has the leverage of 500 million citizens - a big carrot to dangle or a big stick to use. Alone, we will have little choice but to agree terms imposed on us by larger players - it will be a 'take-it-or-leave-it' scenario, with post-Brexit leaders desperate to nail as many deals as quickly as possible to demonstrate how "right" they were. What's the betting that the public won't get told about the small print on those deals. We currently have good deals in place that are set to be binned if we leave.

I just don't understand why the above isn't obvious. It's all out there but people are ignoring it.

My 2 cents - thanks for reading.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Astus » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:23 pm

If they vote to stay, the EU is justified, so further requests for special treatment of the UK can be dismissed.
If they vote to leave, they will still be subject to the same EU laws and regulations without any power to change them.
All in all, this whole referendum idea will likely cause the fall of the current British government, no matter the results.

And from the perspective of the ordinary citizen, better vote stay. The EU makes travel and such a lot easier.

As for the global concerns of industrialisation and protection of the environment, only larger groups can make efficient changes. So, it is ethically defensible to vote in.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
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4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
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1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:24 pm

Everything is dependent-related and so isolationism is not a good idea as we are always stronger together and working together. I don't believe we should leave the EU as it is a leap in the dark and there are no proven economic benefits or even immigration benefits as we may have to accept free movement of people in order to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. The EU has introduced many good laws regarding worker's rights. On the other hand, the EU is anti-democratic and needs considerable reform, but that won't happen by walking away either.

I'm going to vote to remain.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:41 pm

srivijaya wrote:I just don't understand why the above isn't obvious. It's all out there but people are ignoring it.
I guess the problem is most of us do not even know we could try to think things through. Arguments do not win public debates, nor do they sway the opinions of the participants or the already persuaded audiences. We think in terms of strong buzzwords, vivid, memorable slogans, emotionally appealing (or appalling) phrases -- "think" being perhaps too strong a word -- which become all the more powerful if they relate to the more primal of our emotions.

The case for Brexit is obvious: we get back all of OUR hard-won freedom -- while THEY at the very last stop manipulating US, stealing OUR jobs and regulating the curvature of OUR mighty imperial bananas. Resistance is truly futile...
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by srivijaya » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:58 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:The case for Brexit is obvious: we get back all of OUR hard-won freedom -- while THEY at the very last stop manipulating US, stealing OUR jobs and regulating the curvature of OUR mighty imperial bananas. Resistance is truly futile...
Yeah, it's the bloody straight bananas! :tantrum: :twothumbsup:

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:21 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:The case for Brexit is obvious: we get back all of OUR hard-won freedom -- while THEY at the very last stop manipulating US, stealing OUR jobs and regulating the curvature of OUR mighty imperial bananas. Resistance is truly futile...
My issue with the leave side is that the UK created alot of the original laws of the EU (ECHR etc.) so I see complaining that they restrict us with these are a bit strange.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by AlexMcLeod » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:29 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
AlexMcLeod wrote:The real question is, will they be allowed to leave if they so decided. Or will the EU follow the US example, and keep them by force?
Yeah... If they decide to leave Greece will invade them and steal all their cod and chips!
I was thinking of economic force in this instance. The EU is one of the largest economies in the world, and could easily bludgeon the UK into submission if they so desired. Just like China, Russia and the US play the game.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.

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