Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

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Qing Tian
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Qing Tian » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:27 am

I'm going to be generous and assume that your remark is made with full knowledge of what I actually meant, and that you were at least attempting to be funny. :tongue:

As I was growing up - as an Englishman - Europeans were those people who lived over the water. You know, in Europe. Britain was a separate land.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating separatism here, merely reflecting on the tenor of my own culture during my upbringing.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:43 pm

@DGA: It wasn't directed at you.

But I'm interested how you argue that 70 years evolution of a couple hundred million people are an "American product".

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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:29 pm

The Europist left has made a mistake similar to that of the Communists in the past; they too thought that they were acting in the interests of the people, but the latter, being incapable of understanding, had to be led by an unelected elite.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/21/ ... -dead-end/
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:18 pm

. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:22 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Corbyn interviewed:

https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/why-i-am- ... exit-vote/

Right, he wants Britain to remain in to lay the ground for a left opposition.

But this is all just a neoliberal mess. Who needs it? Britain should exit, in my opinion. Scotland wants to stay in, of course, because they have no economy apart from tourists, despite a lot of fierce leftist posturing. But they should leave too.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:51 pm

Trump will fix it, then :)
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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:55 pm

Kaccāni wrote:Trump will fix it, then :)

Oh, lord no. Trump can't fix anything. He is a total loser.

One of the principle reasons I appose large currency unions is that they disadvantage poorer regions. This is also true in the US, BTW.

If you control your own currency, you can price local goods into your economy affordably. But when you belong to a currency union, this becomes impossible. Thus, when Italy joined the EU, prices soared in Italy, making everything much more expensive than before.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:08 pm

But that feeds back. German prices doubled too. And one of the first notable factors was food imported from Italy ;-)
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:12 pm

Yes, the EU is a bloody mess right now. But exiting destroys the only common platform we have, and if we do so, demons will start to properly wake up again.

The crux of the matter is,

(1) Brexit will in all likelihood initiate the collapse of the EU, which is why it is supported by the far right more than anyone else. Neoliberal thugs would not really mind it either -- the grip of their ideology is so firm that neither Brexit nor the collapse of the EU pose any real threat to it. What Hungary, Poland and Ukraine have shown is that you still can have stable marriages of semi-fascist states and firmly neoliberal economies. And

(2) whether the hard right realises it or not, at the end of the road they want to take there is nothing but carnage. Yugoslavia shows neatly what happens in Europe when common platforms fall apart and nationalism is allowed a place in the public debate. Finally,

(3) there is no significant genuine leftwing project in Europe capable of making use of Brexit right now. Let us face it: the parliamentary left is only beginning to realise how much they have surrendered and at what cost. Podemos are still rather weak. Syriza committed suicide. Corbyn is the first ray of hope for the Labour since the 1970s. Outside the parliament things are not much brighter either.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:45 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Yes, the EU is a bloody mess right now. But exiting destroys the only common platform we have, and if we do so, demons will start to properly wake up again.
They are waking up anyway.
The crux of the matter is,

(1) Brexit will in all likelihood initiate the collapse of the EU, which is why it is supported by the far right more than anyone else. Neoliberal thugs would not really mind it either -- the grip of their ideology is so firm that neither Brexit nor the collapse of the EU pose any real threat to it. What Hungary, Poland and Ukraine have shown is that you still can have stable marriages of semi-fascist states and firmly neoliberal economies. And
This is not a good reason for staying in. It is like saying, I am in a bad marriage, but if I leave, I might get pimped out, so I would rather stay and be subject to the same beatings as before.
(2) whether the hard right realises it or not, at the end of the road they want to take there is nothing but carnage. Yugoslavia shows neatly what happens in Europe when common platforms fall apart and nationalism is allowed a place in the public debate. Finally,
Nationalism is already central. The EU is a failed attempt at controlling the European Nationalisms that led to WWII.

(3) there is no significant genuine leftwing project in Europe capable of making use of Brexit right now.
There never will be.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:This is not a good reason for staying in. It is like saying, I am in a bad marriage, but if I leave, I might get pimped out, so I would rather stay and be subject to the same beatings as before.
The analogy does not hold. The EU is many things. One of the brilliant things it does is provide us with a transnational platform -- which can never serve neoliberalism and only neoliberalism. And that platform did succeed in preventing nationalism, for as long as we had the social welfare state. It is only now that it is finally gone that the hard right has re-emerged from its caves.
Malcolm wrote:
there is no significant genuine leftwing project in Europe capable of making use of Brexit right now.
There never will be.
Oh do give us some time.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:04 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is not a good reason for staying in. It is like saying, I am in a bad marriage, but if I leave, I might get pimped out, so I would rather stay and be subject to the same beatings as before.
The analogy does not hold. The EU is many things. One of the brilliant things it does is provide us with a transnational platform -- which can never serve neoliberalism and only neoliberalism.
You see, this is where we disagree. The EU is based on precisely on the kind of damaging free trade agreements that is neoliberalism's hallmark.
And that platform did succeed in preventing nationalism, for as long as we had the social welfare state. It is only now that it is finally gone that the hard right has re-emerged from its caves.
Actually, what I think has happened is that neoliberal program for the Middle East has utterly failed, placing economic and social pressures on the EU it was never equipped to handle, precisely because it is only a currency union and not a nation.
Oh do give us some time.
Waiting with baited breath.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by dzoki » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:58 pm

I think in short term it is better for UK to stay. If UK leaves it will mess up not only UK's economy, but also of other EU countries (especially economy of Poland, kurwa!). Germany will definitely seek revenge by imposing economical restrictions on UK and so will other EU members. Scotland might consider splitting away from UK should Brexit happen.

Now if UK is able to wait out all the tough times that will come should Brexit happen, then I think they will be better off, especially compared to the countries staying in EU which will start falling apart after Brexit. Should Brexit be a reality next countries to leave are Netherlands and Czech Republic.
EU had some good points to its existence but overall it really is a piece of stinking turd. Its government is way too expensive and lacking any transparency at all. It would be worthwhile to break it up and rebuild it in a better way.

There is a European cultural identity of a sort. Especially here in central Europe, we share a lot of cultural values and ideas, cultures of Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Austria and Germany have many things in common - such as cuisine, folklore, music (well Czechs might be the exception with their weird taste for 80's disco music). So there definitely is a Central European identity, there is Balkans identity, there is Mediterranean identity a Nordic identity and a Western European identity. All of these cultural areas are not separate they kind of blend at their borders and there are also some things shared throughout the Europe.

I spent one year as a high-school student in the USA (in Oregon), with some European students - from Belgium, Romania, Slovakia, Lithuania and Germany and we noticed that we bonded much better among ourselves than with US students. For example we all found US students to be a little too immature for their age (17-18 years). Many US students were nerds :D and they did not understand our jokes - which we understood among ourselves regardless of the European country from which we came. American kids had a lot of problems with sexuality - you know premarital chastity and all that BS. Europe overall is much more sexually liberated than USA. So based on my experience I think there is a distinct European identity that can be distinguished from say American identity.

So I think we would be much better of to stay together as European nations, we have many things in common and it has many advantages to work together, but we need something much better than current EU.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:14 pm

dzoki wrote:I think in short term it is better for UK to stay. If UK leaves it will mess up not only UK's economy, but also of other EU countries (especially economy of Poland, kurwa!). Germany will definitely seek revenge by imposing economical restrictions on UK and so will other EU members.
Ironic, what? Germany, crushed during WWII, the perpetrator of one of the worst wars in world history, now controls what they failed to conquer.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:30 pm

I sort of can only shake my head at this discussion. Europe's population has a vast liberal (not libertarian) base. Just because global capitalism (say: many U.S. based investors) bought out companies to the point of forcing German labour market into the same low pay precriate, that does not mean those liberal voices are dead. But desintegration, instead of integration, is not the way to go. It is water on the mills of the new far right. It is that new far right that is to be feared. Miny you. NSDAP started as a socialist workers party turned the same nationalist and racial segregationism.

What is discussed here is a punch in the face of Europe's liberals. That Chomskyian socio-anarchy is not going to come.

I grew up in Germany. I am a pacifist. I don't care about race or gender. There are a ton more. Dont give us the prejudice-bs. That's not what is necessary here. Seperationism wont pacify defilements. Only integration will.

That global capitalism problem is bigger, and U.S. foreign policies are not quite innocent in creating it. And Brexit wont stop it.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:37 pm

Kaccāni wrote: That global capitalism problem is bigger, and U.S. foreign policies are not quite innocent in creating it. And Brexit wont stop it.
And the neoliberal policies that presently drive the EU is going to fix global capitalism how?, given that neo-liberalism is the driving force of global capitalism.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote: That global capitalism problem is bigger, and U.S. foreign policies are not quite innocent in creating it. And Brexit wont stop it.
And the neoliberal policies that presently drive the EU is going to fix global capitalism how?, given that neo-liberalism is the driving force of global capitalism.
Theose neoliberal policies are not the European people. Only media power and manipulation are driving people into it. You must understand, that it was more or less a miracle that Merkel rose to power. At the time, Germany had a larger Democrat base than there were Conservatives (which, as an adept of former Chancellor Kohl), she comes from. There were two driving forces that led to her rise. One, the social democats were split by Oscar Lafontaine (with a little help of former East German politician Gregor Gysi). They formed the "socialist left". This, in fact, rendered a democrat majority both as losers to the Conservative fraction in the election. To this date I wonder what they were paid for doing that. Two, the former liberal party, as a junior partner of the conservatives, considerably turned libertarian in the post-Schröderian heir that Merkel inherited and dwells her reign upon. Unfortunately, their key figure, who could stand for liberal values, Guido Westerwelle, died from Leukemia (after failing to lead the party out of that coalition mess).

Merkel herself is good at maintaining power. She knows how to immobilize political opponents, her main skill. Believe me, the majority of Germans (except maybe Bavaria) are not fond of her reign. Her party has lost considerable voters, to the point that there is a right shift to deal with the new right, trying to regain their base. It's that right shift that is the problem here. Liberal attempts at solving that problem have been too easily dealt with. It's exactly this new right that burns down refugee camps here, that is following the Trumpian example of racial and national separationism. Germany, too, is a melting pod.

On top of that, consider that the main source of the new far right originates in the German east (those who were told in this thread to have been screwed over). One problem is, that some rural societies did not have the 50 years of integration attemts with foreign (Turkish, Croatian, Serbian and Italian) workers that the western parts of Germany had. They were freed from a tyrant at exactly the point where capitalist oligarchies went nuts due to the acceleration of markets by automated trading and globalization. That's bad, but it happened. It's susceptible to prejudice. It has turned formerly socialist-oppressed people into capitalism-oppressed racist-nationalists. Now pouring more prejudice there won't help one single bit, but confirm the (we had it in another thread) silly people who get off on "me first!".

Uniting all the integration-opponents throughout Europe by example (who thrive on violence against any minority, or say, "foreigners"), is not the way to go. Heck, Suisse claimed that they have more "foreigners" than any E.U. country, and a German nationalist politician publicly asked whether they count Germans as "foreigners". That's the level of public demagogy there. Those movements exist throughout Europe. Austrian government recently almost turned nationalist-conservative. Let's not talk about Hungary, the chief source of neo-nazism. Or Polish government, who are eager to follow their example. Or those non-central countries like Spain or Greece whose economy suffered a ton. And in the middle of all of that, due to the mess global oil-wars have created in the middle east and the refugee crisis that followed it, Turkish quasi-dicator Erdogan can spill his religio-conservative spit over the whole debate.

So now you tell me if you really want more seperationism in Europe or not. It's the best way, in the end, to unite the nationalist-authoritarian forces and to dispell al the rest. That's what Weimar had, and a 5% requirement won't save us. A 15% majority can be enough. Of course, Lockheed-Martin and company will cheer. Yet another place to earn money from where the oil lobby claimed all the rest. Actually, there are so many money-tsars in European governments that drive this separationsim, that liberal socialists are forced into thinking that it can't be for their own benefit, if the big power people want it.

Oh, and if the conclusion is that this cannot be helped in the light of global captialism anyway, then wu-wei may be a considerable option.

The town where I live sounds sirens every year on one day, shortly after midnight. It is to remind of the night where the town was pretty much bombed down to the ruins, and the basis of living for most people (if not the people themselves) has been destroyed in a huge attempt at "liberation". That was 70 years ago. Guess there was a really devastating feeling of liberation here. Even my generation has only memory of this from tales. The generation who is in their 20s now don't even know of a separated Germany anymore. Those are different people, 3 generations later.

Please de-generalize.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:13 am

Kaccāni wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote: That global capitalism problem is bigger, and U.S. foreign policies are not quite innocent in creating it. And Brexit wont stop it.
And the neoliberal policies that presently drive the EU is going to fix global capitalism how?, given that neo-liberalism is the driving force of global capitalism.
Theose neoliberal policies are not the European people.
I have been to the continent of Europe many times. In all that time, I have never met a European. I have met French people, Italians, Poles, Germans, etc., but I never met anyone who introduced themselves to me as "European" in the same way Americans introduce themselves as Americans rather than say Californians, Floridians, Michiganders, etc.

Only media power and manipulation are driving people into it. You must understand, that it was more or less a miracle that Merkel rose to power. At the time, Germany had a larger Democrat base than there were Conservatives (which, as an adept of former Chancellor Kohl), she comes from. There were two driving forces that led to her rise. One, the social democats were split by Oscar Lafontaine (with a little help of former East German politician Gregor Gysi). They formed the "socialist left". This, in fact, rendered a democrat majority both as losers to the Conservative fraction in the election. To this date I wonder what they were paid for doing that. Two, the former liberal party, as a junior partner of the conservatives, considerably turned libertarian in the post-Schröderian heir that Merkel inherited and dwells her reign upon. Unfortunately, their key figure, who could stand for liberal values, Guido Westerwelle, died from Leukemia (after failing to lead the party out of that coalition mess).

Merkel herself is good at maintaining power. She knows how to immobilize political opponents, her main skill. Believe me, the majority of Germans (except maybe Bavaria) are not fond of her reign. Her party has lost considerable voters, to the point that there is a right shift to deal with the new right, trying to regain their base. It's that right shift that is the problem here. Liberal attempts at solving that problem have been too easily dealt with. It's exactly this new right that burns down refugee camps here, that is following the Trumpian example of racial and national separationism. Germany, too, is a melting pod.
I like what Rudolf Bharo said:
  • “At last I have understood that a party is a counterproductive tool, that the given political space is a trap into which life energy disappears, indeed, where it is rededicated to the spiral of death.”
On top of that, consider that the main source of the new far right originates in the German east (those who were told in this thread to have been screwed over). One problem is, that some rural societies did not have the 50 years of integration attemts with foreign (Turkish, Croatian, Serbian and Italian) workers that the western parts of Germany had. They were freed from a tyrant at exactly the point where capitalist oligarchies went nuts due to the acceleration of markets by automated trading and globalization. That's bad, but it happened. It's susceptible to prejudice. It has turned formerly socialist-oppressed people into capitalism-oppressed racist-nationalists. Now pouring more prejudice there won't help one single bit, but confirm the (we had it in another thread) silly people who get off on "me first!".
If you think the solution to prejudice is enforcing the technocratic rule of Brussels, you are kidding yourself. The EU survives solely because it is in Germany's present interest that it survive. When that changes, and it will, the EU will collapse like the house of cards that it is.
Uniting all the integration-opponents throughout Europe by example (who thrive on violence against any minority, or say, "foreigners"), is not the way to go. Heck, Suisse claimed that they have more "foreigners" than any E.U. country, and a German nationalist politician publicly asked whether they count Germans as "foreigners". That's the level of public demagogy there. Those movements exist throughout Europe. Austrian government recently almost turned nationalist-conservative. Let's not talk about Hungary, the chief source of neo-nazism. Or Polish government, who are eager to follow their example. Or those non-central countries like Spain or Greece whose economy suffered a ton. And in the middle of all of that, due to the mess global oil-wars have created in the middle east and the refugee crisis that followed it, Turkish quasi-dicator Erdogan can spill his religio-conservative spit over the whole debate.
These are symptoms, not the cause. Racism and prejudice are never causes, they are only symptoms of wider dysfunction, and instead of seeing this, you want to double down on a dysfunctional state of affairs.
So now you tell me if you really want more seperationism in Europe or not.
Britain is not part of Europe. Never has been.
It's the best way, in the end, to unite the nationalist-authoritarian forces and to dispell al the rest. That's what Weimar had, and a 5% requirement won't save us.
If you really want a European Union, you need to more than just a currency union. You will need an actual democratic government, not a system of trade agreements and enforcers of the same.

Each of the nations which form the EU will need to relinquish its own sovereignty.

Since no European nation is willing to do so, least of all the French, your EU was doomed before it began (and of course, it is not an accident that the former Holy Roman Empire regions get along swimmingly, for the most part). You will also need to decide on one official language in which to conduct all business and which will form the primary language of education.

What you are talking about is not an EU, but a United States of Europe, a USE. But you are very far away from a USE because of the individual desire of each of your member nations to preserve its own unique identity. Thus, there is no chance that Europe will ever be able form into a coherent state.

This is why I think that exit is the best way forward for Britain. It may not happen in this referendum, but it will happen eventually, within the next ten years, I guess.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by AlexMcLeod » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:14 am

Kaccāni wrote:Oh, and if the conclusion is that this cannot be helped in the light of global captialism anyway, then wu-wei may be a considerable option.
Wu-wei is never an option without the first half of that Taoist teaching. Taoists were notorious for leaving out the instruction part of their teachings.

The teaching of wu-wei is merely fatalism if you don't know the first part of the phrase: yu-wei. The full Taoist saying in this case is: yu-wei, wu-wei. This translates roughly to: "First, do something appropriate, then, do nothing, and everything will be done for you."
Because I know you'll ask, the source is my teacher's teacher, a former Taoist Magician, turned Buddhist.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:12 am

Malcolm wrote:Thus, there is no chance that Europe will ever be able form into a coherent state.
Yegads. A clairvoyant. This Europe-Karma is just so hopeless. You really should make your money with future telling.

Well. Maybe you do. :)

@Alex: I do know a couple of Taoist instructions.

Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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