Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

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Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:07 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Theoretically there is a shared culture: European culture.
Nice theory. But it is just that, a theory.

Now you are starting to get the gist of the problem. Although their is an economic union, the states still consider themselves seperate economic and political entities and each one jockeys for a favorable position within the union, instead of looking at what would benefit the whole.
That is because it is not a whole. The French are French, the Dutch are Dutch, Spaniards are Spaniards., etc. Corporations benefit immensely from the EU arrangement— people, well, not so much.
These are examples of how the currently conceived union is not a sustainable project. If the union was based on the MUTUAL aid and not the individual profit of its member states, then it would work just fine.
It was set up, from the beginning, with a neo-liberal agenda, not a socialist one.
Even Germany is not really a unified entity. Consider how the west Germans screwed the east Germans on the currency exchange. That is an as yet unresolved social/cultural, economic and political issue.
Nevertheless, Germany still benefits from the EU the most.
Look at the north/south divide in the US: 150+ years and still bubbling away.
I have often thought that the US would be better off divided into four or more separate countries.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Iconodule » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:15 pm

If the Canadians decided to annex Pennsylvania, I would personally welcome their tanks with a bouquet and maple-leaf flag.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:That is because it is not a whole. The French are French, the Dutch are Dutch, Spaniards are Spaniards., etc. Corporations benefit immensely from the EU arrangement— people, well, not so much.
I agree, but it doesn't have to be like this.
It was set up, from the beginning, with a neo-liberal agenda, not a socialist one.
Well, actually, not exactly. It is socialist on lots of levels, maybe not so much economically, that is for sure. Although there is a large degree of state planning in that sector too.

It is a type of capitalist federalism with a semi-planned economy.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:48 pm

The UK-EU relationship from an expert on International law

https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLi ... nref=story

Malcolm
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:59 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:That is because it is not a whole. The French are French, the Dutch are Dutch, Spaniards are Spaniards., etc. Corporations benefit immensely from the EU arrangement— people, well, not so much.
I agree, but it doesn't have to be like this.
It was set up, from the beginning, with a neo-liberal agenda, not a socialist one.
Well, actually, not exactly. It is socialist on lots of levels, maybe not so much economically, that is for sure. Although there is a large degree of state planning in that sector too.

It is a type of capitalist federalism with a semi-planned economy.
England should leave. They will be better off for it, no matter what the neoliberal economists claim.

SpinyNorman
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by SpinyNorman » Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:52 am

Malcolm wrote:England should leave. They will be better off for it, no matter what the neoliberal economists claim.
The problem is that Britain leaving the EU would be a leap into the unknown at many levels, something the Remain camp have capitalised on.

I am expecting a Remain majority somewhere between 55 and 60% of the vote.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Vasana » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:17 pm

phpBB [video]



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jGC5S3ag1q0

Very good (and funny) summary.
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SpinyNorman
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by SpinyNorman » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:10 pm

The Scottish nationalists are talking about trying to remain in the EU if Britain votes to leave as a whole. Perhaps in that scenario the English would get Donald Trump to rebuild Hadrian's Wall. :tongue:

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Bristollad » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:06 pm

I'm not sure he'd do a proper job! How many of "his" building projects have been successful?

Anyway, we've our own set of fools we could muster to do the job - Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson spring to mind.
Strangely enough Boris Johnson is both a British subject and an American citizen and his grandfather's name (before it was changed it to Wilfred "Jonny" Johnson) was Osman Kemal.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by SpinyNorman » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:29 pm

Bristollad wrote:Anyway, we've our own set of fools we could muster to do the job - Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson spring to mind.
Boris Johnson reminds me a little of Donald Trump for some reason. ;)

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Kaccāni
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:52 pm

Well, the U.S. would probably favour a disintegrating E.U. So there's always pro and con.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by DGA » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:39 pm

Kaccāni wrote:Well, the U.S. would probably favour a disintegrating E.U. So there's always pro and con.

Best wishes
Kc
No no no no no no no no.

The EU is heir to a number of measures taken by the US to ensure that our sons and daughters don't have to put out any further fires that Europeans tend to start under each other's thatching. Economic disintegration means a greater possibility of political and therefore military strife, and that spells TROUBLE to the Pentagon and more importantly to the predictable flows of capital across borders. The predictable reproduction of the present into the future, the repetition of the status quo, is what American power wants in Europe.

This is why the POTUS actually spoke out in an attempt to convince Britons to stay in the EU.

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Virgo
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:31 am

DGA wrote:The predictable reproduction of the present into the future, the repetition of the status quo, is what American power wants in Europe.
phpBB [video]

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:04 pm

A decent piece:

https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/not-polit ... on-brexit/

I do not share his faith in the possibility of Brexit having in the end a positive influence on the history of Europe, though. And it is a bit like saying that since experiencing war means appreciating peace, war does have its benefits in the long run...
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Kaccāni
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:11 pm

@DGA: Sounds cocky, me thinks.
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by DGA » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:41 pm

Kaccāni wrote:@DGA: Sounds cocky, me thinks.
Overconfident and presumptuous, yes. "greeted as liberators," no.

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Qing Tian
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Qing Tian » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:54 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
A currency union without a shared cultural union is bound to fail.
I disagree. Theoretically there is a shared culture: European culture.
I don't think you'll find too many British people who consider themselves to be European, culturally or otherwise. British culture has always been seen as distinctly different from continental European culture.

So, no, there is no cultural union. And in all sincerity I don't believe there is any particularly strong cultural union between any of the other European nations either. Lip service at best.
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Kaccāni
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by Kaccāni » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:05 pm

Sigh.

This thread is only purporting prejudice. One out-group bias following the next. As anti-buddhist as one can become.

There are Buddhists in Europe. And there are a ton of people who don't give a damn where one comes from. There's a vast liberal base in Europe, and Germany in particular. And whereever I went, in the end, most people only want to live a happy live together. I have friends from Spain, Italy, Croatia, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, the U.K., Russia, Georgia, Turkey, ...

But you're right that the big financial bosses and politicians in power are not too interested in a "union", but more about their personal power. And they use the mass-media, to stir the samsaric wheel and keep people in agony, so they start to fight against each other. That's what currently happens in the U.K.

But don't mistake that for "the European people".

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Kc
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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by DGA » Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:46 pm

Kaccāni wrote:Sigh.

This thread is only purporting prejudice. One out-group bias following the next. As anti-buddhist as one can become.

There are Buddhists in Europe. And there are a ton of people who don't give a damn where one comes from. There's a vast liberal base in Europe, and Germany in particular. And whereever I went, in the end, most people only want to live a happy live together. I have friends from Spain, Italy, Croatia, Austria, Switzerland, Finland, the U.K., Russia, Georgia, Turkey, ...

But you're right that the big financial bosses and politicians in power are not too interested in a "union", but more about their personal power. And they use the mass-media, to stir the samsaric wheel and keep people in agony, so they start to fight against each other. That's what currently happens in the U.K.

But don't mistake that for "the European people".

Best wishes
Kc
Sure, the Europeans (people) I have met have been, by and large, good people like everyone else I meet. I have cousins and friends in Europe. They're lovely. That's entirely beside the point; in fact, I suspect that your remarks aren't directed at me since I didn't generalize about European people, but I'm giving this post a go just in case.

You don't have to study much history to know that European states, European nations, European peoples have been extraordinarily proficient at all manner of conflict, and that in the last century it has fallen to the Americans* to put the pieces back together again. A united and integrated Europe is largely an American product. And the powers that be in the US and other financial centers would really prefer it to stay that way: predictable, steady, smooth... That was the point of my previous post. Put differently: The Americans want a pliable and exploitable Europe. (ask yourself, "exploitable by whom")

*The Soviets had a significant role here too, particularly in war casualties in WWII. I'm bracketing the narrative of the Warsaw Pact because that's not where the triumphalist nonsense of the "end of history" is drawn upon.

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Re: Britian's upcoming E.U referendum

Post by SpinyNorman » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:39 am

Qing Tian wrote:British culture has always been seen as distinctly different from continental European culture.
No, we've always had influxes of EU migrants, like the Danes from the year 793, then the French in 1066. :tongue:

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