Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, senior order members were encouraged to have sexual relations with junior members. This is one reason this organization is so off. You had one predator at the top encouraging his underlings to emulate his predatory behavior.
:shock:

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, senior order members were encouraged to have sexual relations with junior members. This is one reason this organization is so off. You had one predator at the top encouraging his underlings to emulate his predatory behavior.
I said "mainly" one person. Do we know the real extent of this problem?

But, realistically speaking, encouraging gay sex between adults is hardly the same as raping little boys now, is it? No, I'm not saying that you said that, but others here seem to be trying to make this exact point.

The saddest part is how he used Buddhism (or pseudo-Buddhist theory) merely to satisfy his lust, rather than the fact that some guys felt that maybe they were pressured into having sex.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes, senior order members were encouraged to have sexual relations with junior members. This is one reason this organization is so off. You had one predator at the top encouraging his underlings to emulate his predatory behavior.
I said "mainly" one person. Do we know the real extent of this problem?

But, realistically speaking, encouraging gay sex between adults is hardly the same as raping little boys now, is it? No, I'm not saying that you said that, but others here seem to be trying to make this exact point.
Some people were underage. Then there is the power differential issue -- you know, the one that forbids you as a therapist from sleeping with your patients. It goes a lot deeper than someone once pressuring another into a relationship. It was a rather systematic problem in that organization, which you can discern by looking into it.
The saddest part is how he used Buddhism (or pseudo-Buddhist theory) merely to satisfy his lust, rather than the fact that some guys felt that maybe they were pressured into having sex.
The saddest part is how once again a person in a position of power used that power to harm others.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by HePo » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:38 pm

For some info on Lingwood / FWBO / Triratna

http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/OutlineSex.htm

https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... ual-abuse/

am providing these links, cause some of the posters on this thread do not seem to be very informed and/or have not bothered to read the Guardian article before responding.

Grigoris wrote:
Let's put things in perspective, shall we?
To put things "in perspective" you would have to be well informed - your postings in this thread does not reflect that at all.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:10 pm

HePo wrote:To put things "in perspective" you would have to be well informed - your postings in this thread does not reflect that at all.
The perspective is the extent of the problem (and yes, I consider it a problem) in comparison to the extent, and nature of the issue, that exists in the Catholic church.

The first link you gave provides no evidence about the extent of the problem, just the ideological basis for it.

The second link talks about one boy (at the time) that was abused. Now, one boy is one boy too many, I agree, but still... The vast majority of the cases seem to talk about consenting adults that later considered that they were coerced.
Malcolm wrote:The saddest part is how once again a person in a position of power used that power to harm others.
Of course, I agree. But the title of the thread "Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse" seems to highlight the "Buddhist sect" as much as the "sexual abuse" part of the issue.

And let us not overlook the fact that only one person has filed a complaint and one other (an adult) reported that "he had been persuaded to engage in sexual activity with Lingwood". For an organization with tens of thousands of members this is hardly a scandal of immense proportions.

But as JD said:
Sex abuse stories always make for great news, maximum outrage.
And we are seeing this happening right now and here too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
HePo wrote:To put things "in perspective" you would have to be well informed - your postings in this thread does not reflect that at all.
The perspective is the extent of the problem (and yes, I consider it a problem) in comparison to the extent, and nature of the issue, that exists in the Catholic church.

The first link you gave provides no evidence about the extent of the problem, just the ideological basis for it.

The second link talks about one boy (at the time) that was abused. Now, one boy is one boy too many, I agree, but still... The vast majority of the cases seem to talk about consenting adults that later considered that they were coerced.
Malcolm wrote:The saddest part is how once again a person in a position of power used that power to harm others.
Of course, I agree. But the title of the thread "Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse" seems to highlight the "Buddhist sect" as much as the "sexual abuse" part of the issue.

And let us not overlook the fact that only one person has filed a complaint and one other (an adult) reported that "he had been persuaded to engage in sexual activity with Lingwood". For an organization with tens of thousands of members this is hardly a scandal of immense proportions.

But as JD said:
Sex abuse stories always make for great news, maximum outrage.
And we are seeing this happening right now and here too.
The second link HePo posted includes mention of someone who died by suicide after being coerced into sex with his Buddhist teacher in this group.

I don't think the comparison to the Roman Catholic Church's sex abuse history is relevant. This is a different thing. It's bad in different ways. And it is bad.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:25 pm

DGA wrote:The second link HePo posted includes mention of someone who died by suicide after being coerced into sex with his Buddhist teacher in this group.
In the article? I didn't see it written anywhere.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Norwegian » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
DGA wrote:The second link HePo posted includes mention of someone who died by suicide after being coerced into sex with his Buddhist teacher in this group.
In the article? I didn't see it written anywhere.
To understand the harm such abuse can bring you can read the Guardian report "The dark side of enlightenment" from 1997 which reports the sad story of Matthew, a talented Oxford graduate who rejected careerism in the mid-1980s and joined the FWBO and who committed suicide.
It's there.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Grigoris » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:59 pm

Norwegian wrote:It's there.
Oh, it is too. In the footnotes. I didn't read the footnotes. I went on to read the article about Matthew though, including his psychologists report:

"In my opinion Matthew's three-year residence in the FWBO had extremely harmful psychological effects upon him ... I have no doubt that this inability to cope with rejection [of losing the job shortly before his suicide] from others directly stemmed from the years of psychological abuse and rejection he had experienced whilst he was a member of the Buddhist community."

That's some pretty sad and unfortunate shit!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:42 pm

The Dalai Lama has often warned people to be careful when choosing a master because they have masters who are only interested in sex and money.

Many people who are looking for a spiritual center to seek help do not mind researching these centers. When a person speaks something of wisdom that alleviates their suffering, they think that these people are spices and there run the risk of suffering such abuse.

Did not research on these masters. But they also had so much trouble that they could not do it?
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:55 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:The Dalai Lama has often warned people to be careful when choosing a master because they have masters who are only interested in sex and money.

Many people who are looking for a spiritual center to seek help do not mind researching these centers. When a person speaks something of wisdom that alleviates their suffering, they think that these people are spices and there run the risk of suffering such abuse.

Did not research on these masters. But they also had so much trouble that they could not do it?
Don't misconstrue the following as victim blaming, because victims of sexual abuse deserve both justice and comfort.

There are some very unhealthy sexual relationships where it takes two to tango, people with gnawing needs that can only be fulfilled by being one end of a shitty relationship often find it in charismatic figures who will assuage all their worry, and grant them a quick trip to whatever it is they believe they are seeking, only to deeply regret it later. It's reasonable to point out that the "leaders" surely are to blame by default, simply based on their positions of power, but there is a dynamic at play with lost people that will just suspend their critical faculties when they hear the right stuff, I'm sure anyone involved in spirituality for any length of time has seen it.

When people are desperate enough, and think that the "leader" can cure what ails them, they generally put aside things like research.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by shaunc » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:34 pm

Unfortunately bastards are in all religions. I think we should stop treating it as a religious problem (Catholics included) and treat it as a legal problem and anyone caught trying to cover up for these bastards should be charged as being an accessory after the fact and if found guilty should also be jailed.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:44 pm

DGA wrote:
Wayfarer wrote: It's a shame, because FWBO ought really to have been a good model for the propogation of Buddhism in the West.
would you mind elaborating on your point here? I don't know enough about FWBO and its leadership to think it through adequately, but it seems to me that the persistence of this issue speaks to systematic problems in the organization.
Pardon my interjection here, but I agree with Wayfarer and can offer my 2cents on it.

I met a WBO monk several years ago, and I've kept in touch with him over the years. Very nice fellow who had dedicated his life to good works - I don't want to be more specific at the risk of giving his identity away. I have the utmost respect for him.

He explained to me that WBO (now Triratna) drew on all Buddhist traditions because it is not clear what path or paths will be productive for Westerners. Accordingly, they defaulted to a catholic approach, adopting and supporting all Buddhist approaches within their institutional framework, as a way to shake out what will stick in the West. The project seemed to me to make sense, and their organization and collection of dedicated personnel made it seem a project with real possibility.

When I first learned about these scandals, it bummed me out, because it knee capped what appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:53 pm

Queequeg wrote:WBO seemed like a good start.
FWBO was deeply flawed from the start. Not only is Lingwood's understanding of Buddhadharma idiosyncratic and partial, he has been lying about himself for decades, since the 1950's.

Discomfort with him in normative Buddhist circles is the rule, rather than the exception, and has been since he returned to England from Asia.

His early career was also checkered with scandal in India as well.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
He explained to me that WBO (now Triratna) drew on all Buddhist traditions because it is not clear what path or paths will be productive for Westerners.
.
It has always been clear. Vajrayāna, because we like technology and methods. :stirthepot:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote:WBO seemed like a good start.
FWBO was deeply flawed from the start. Not only is Lingwood's understanding of Buddhadharma idiosyncratic and partial, he has been lying about himself for decades, since the 1950's.

Discomfort with him in normative Buddhist circles is the rule, rather than the exception, and has been since he returned to England from Asia.

His early career was also checkered with scandal in India as well.
I didn't know about this until much later. Notwithstanding, I think the idea is right; obviously the execution was wrong.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
He explained to me that WBO (now Triratna) drew on all Buddhist traditions because it is not clear what path or paths will be productive for Westerners.
.
It has always been clear. Vajrayāna, because we like technology and methods. :stirthepot:
Not Vajrayana because its too weird with all the demons and fornicating gods. :stirthepot:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
He explained to me that WBO (now Triratna) drew on all Buddhist traditions because it is not clear what path or paths will be productive for Westerners.
.
It has always been clear. Vajrayāna, because we like technology and methods. :stirthepot:
Not Vajrayana because its too weird with all the demons and fornicating gods. :stirthepot:
Definitely, Vajrayāna because it has fornication built right in. The demons are a bonus.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.

The question of how to indigenize Dharma internationally, globally, in some respects follows from the first. Here's why.

The task that Lingwood set himself, of teaching all Dharma practices and adjudicating which ones are most appropriate to which students at a given time, is the work of an awakened one. Who else is capable of making such decisions?

If Lingwood had been an arya himself, then... but no. All too human.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It has always been clear. Vajrayāna, because we like technology and methods. :stirthepot:
Not Vajrayana because its too weird with all the demons and fornicating gods. :stirthepot:
Definitely, Vajrayāna because it has fornication built right in. The demons are a bonus.
Yeah, after I pressed send on that, I immediately thought about the torrent of terrabytes of pornography my little message was mixed in with on the way to the server and realized, if enlightenment can be hitched to that, we are as good as enlightened already.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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