Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

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Queequeg
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:21 pm

DGA wrote:
Queequeg wrote:appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.

The question of how to indigenize Dharma internationally, globally, in some respects follows from the first. Here's why.

The task that Lingwood set himself, of teaching all Dharma practices and adjudicating which ones are most appropriate to which students at a given time, is the work of an awakened one. Who else is capable of making such decisions?

If Lingwood had been an arya himself, then... but no. All too human.
Chicken/egg. Good point. That institutional structure also needs the correct seed.

I guess my focus was primarily on the process rather than any particular individual... if we have a "laboratory" where many people are vigorously trying various methods, eventually, some wisdom will shake out of that... I realize that is heavy on the conceptual and doesn't take into account the taint from the inception of the institution.

I think this idea of mine actually comes from Bob Thurman and his whole "free lunch" approach to world peace.

Conclusion - We need the institutional framework, along with the teachers. I play lotto every once in a while. The plan is, after paying off the loans of everyone in my family and setting up an educational trust for my family, the bulk of my winnings would go into endowing chairs at universities and setting up and endowing monasteries in the US. I only ask that you keep St. Queequeg alive in your memories.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:38 pm

DGA wrote:
Wayfarer wrote: It's a shame, because FWBO ought really to have been a good model for the propogation of Buddhism in the West.
would you mind elaborating on your point here? I don't know enough about FWBO and its leadership to think it through adequately, but it seems to me that the persistence of this issue speaks to systematic problems in the organization.
Of course they do. What I meant was prior to the disclosure of those problems, Sangharakshita seemed a credible figure (based on his books), and FWBO's modus operandi seemed suitable for Western converts to Buddhism. I was considering going along to their meetings when that original story broke (and I can't remember when that was, but I think it must have been in the 1990's). The only other interaction I have had was by way of reading their online magazine which was a source of pretty good web articles at one stage.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:08 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
DGA wrote:
Wayfarer wrote: It's a shame, because FWBO ought really to have been a good model for the propogation of Buddhism in the West.
would you mind elaborating on your point here? I don't know enough about FWBO and its leadership to think it through adequately, but it seems to me that the persistence of this issue speaks to systematic problems in the organization.
Of course they do. What I meant was prior to the disclosure of those problems, Sangharakshita seemed a credible figure (based on his books), and FWBO's modus operandi seemed suitable for Western converts to Buddhism. I was considering going along to their meetings when that original story broke (and I can't remember when that was, but I think it must have been in the 1990's). The only other interaction I have had was by way of reading their online magazine which was a source of pretty good web articles at one stage.
OK, now I understand. The word "model" threw me off.

I'm coming to the view that what we need are not models but mastery. We need to practice.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by kirtu » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:17 am

DGA wrote:
Queequeg wrote:appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.
We're not going to get that. The closest we will get is teachers on the paths who have mastered bodhicitta, metta, karma and the basic precepts. So the actual realization will be slight at best (in general).
The question of how to indigenize Dharma internationally, globally, in some respects follows from the first.
I'm not sure what you mean but we do not have to indigenize Dharma. Everyone agrees with cultivating kindness, lovingkindness and compassion. We start from there and teach people to tame their minds.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:14 am

Kirt, I believe what Queegqueg is referring to is the process by which the Buddhadharma fully integrates into the cultural consciousness and produces awakened beings as well as teachings fully suited to said culture. This has happened in all the countries where Buddhism has taken root, and historically takes around 500 years (plus or minus) to happen.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:49 am

Queequeg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Queequeg wrote:
He explained to me that WBO (now Triratna) drew on all Buddhist traditions because it is not clear what path or paths will be productive for Westerners.
.
It has always been clear. Vajrayāna, because we like technology and methods. :stirthepot:
Not Vajrayana because its too weird with all the demons and fornicating gods. :stirthepot:
Marco Pallis, one of the earliest European Kagyü-initiates and practitioners, was of the opinion that Pure Land is the Buddhist tradition most universally appropriate for average Westerners. I agree to some extent. Many of the westerners drawn to Vajrayāna are probably drawn to it for the wrong reasons.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Ayu » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:40 am

Removed some of the Shugden-related discussion about Geshe Domo.

Is it possible to leave the Shugden topic out of this thread, please? Otherwise this topic has to be locked, I guess.

Thanks for respecting our ToS in future.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by shaunc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:26 am

This is just a thought. I've noticed with sex abuse cases involving organised religions, predominantly Buddhist and Catholic but I can also remember one here in Australia that involved the Hindu religion. That sects that demand celibacy from their ordained members seem to be involved in these types of scandals more than sects that don't demand celibacy from their ordained members.
I can't recall many instances for example involving orthodox priests or priests from Japanese sects which generally speaking don't demand celibacy from their priests.
I mean, let's face it, celibacy does go against the natural order of things.
Buddhism is supposed to be a way to find our true nature and celibacy is not a part of true nature in any other animal I can think of so why would it be a part of a humans true nature.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:33 am

shaunc wrote:This is just a thought. I've noticed with sex abuse cases involving organised religions, predominantly Buddhist and Catholic but I can also remember one here in Australia that involved the Hindu religion. That sects that demand celibacy from their ordained members seem to be involved in these types of scandals more than sects that don't demand celibacy from their ordained members.
I can't recall many instances for example involving orthodox priests or priests from Japanese sects which generally speaking don't demand celibacy from their priests.
I mean, let's face it, celibacy does go against the natural order of things.
Buddhism is supposed to be a way to find our true nature and celibacy is not a part of true nature in any other animal I can think of so why would it be a part of a humans true nature.
'ccept that Sangharakshita was not a celibate AND there is no "natural order of things".
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Ayu » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:00 pm

shaunc wrote:This is just a thought. I've noticed with sex abuse cases involving organised religions, predominantly Buddhist and Catholic but I can also remember one here in Australia that involved the Hindu religion. That sects that demand celibacy from their ordained members seem to be involved in these types of scandals more than sects that don't demand celibacy from their ordained members.
I can't recall many instances for example involving orthodox priests or priests from Japanese sects which generally speaking don't demand celibacy from their priests.
I mean, let's face it, celibacy does go against the natural order of things.
Buddhism is supposed to be a way to find our true nature and celibacy is not a part of true nature in any other animal I can think of so why would it be a part of a humans true nature.
Though this is an obvious idea, statisticians deny it. I read an article about some stats, if there was a relation between celibacy and sexual abuse. The stats said: No.
E.g. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/do ... rgy-sexual
They compared a group of school-teachers to a group of catholic celibate priests. The latter contained 4% of sexual abusers, which is a large figure, I think. But it is less than the abusers in the schoolteacher group. I think this means, celibacy has no real influence on the problem, neither positively nor negatively, but sexual abuse is a real big problem in all kinds of societies.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:05 pm

kirtu wrote:
DGA wrote:
Queequeg wrote:appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.
We're not going to get that.
Sure we are.
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One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Nemo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:29 pm

Having lived in a monastery many people have no idea how strong their sexual urges can be. They cannot even imagine the challenges of celibacy. They are caught unprepared and act out in often ridiculous and insane ways. Some with a magical bent even attract the strangest events. Like beautiful naked horny mental patients running around highly isolated retreat locations. I give this creative force a certain respect.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:'ccept that Sangharakshita was not a celibate AND there is no "natural order of things".
Well, what he did was argue that he had not broken any monastic vows because his original ordination was not valid.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:40 pm

kirtu wrote:
DGA wrote:
Queequeg wrote:appeared to be one of the successful efforts to indigenize Buddhism in the West.

We need realized Western teachers, and a lot of them, sooner than later. IMO, our best bet is to establish the institutional support for them to appear and develop within. WBO seemed like a good start.
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.
We're not going to get that. The closest we will get is teachers on the paths who have mastered bodhicitta, metta, karma and the basic precepts. So the actual realization will be slight at best (in general).
If not us, then who?

If not here, then where?

If not now, then when?

We have the opportunity to practice here and now. We must do so. Some of us have more ability and opportunity than others; we should support them. From among us, leaders will emerge.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:45 pm

DGA wrote: If not us, then who?

If not here, then where?

If not now, then when?

We have the opportunity to practice here and now. We must do so. Some of us have more ability and opportunity than others; we should support them. From among us, leaders will emerge.
:applause:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:00 pm

DGA wrote:
kirtu wrote:
DGA wrote:
I agree 100% on the need for realized teachers everywhere, in all nations, speaking all languages.
We're not going to get that. The closest we will get is teachers on the paths who have mastered bodhicitta, metta, karma and the basic precepts. So the actual realization will be slight at best (in general).
If not us, then who?

If not here, then where?

If not now, then when?

We have the opportunity to practice here and now. We must do so. Some of us have more ability and opportunity than others; we should support them. From among us, leaders will emerge.
And we're doing it. Just to create this topic, to disclose that these crimes can happen in any spiritualist center and to warn as people to be very careful about people who call themselves masters. This is already very important for the good of the Dharma in this world.

Many of these cases happened in the 70's or 80's and they did not have the internert as we have today to research about those centers. But now these crimes will not be hidden and these criminals will be arrested.
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Tārāmitra » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:01 pm

Nemo wrote:Having lived in a monastery many people have no idea how strong their sexual urges can be. They cannot even imagine the challenges of celibacy. They are caught unprepared and act out in often ridiculous and insane ways. Some with a magical bent even attract the strangest events. Like beautiful naked horny mental patients running around highly isolated retreat locations. I give this creative force a certain respect.
Hilarious. But it is the case that one’s demons must be fully confronted to be conquered. Celibacy is one radical way of facing it (though not the only way). Some people can't deal with the forces that no longer find an outlet through external objects, which would normally lead to the outward dissipation of these energies. But no one (legitimately) said the path of liberation or awakening would be easy. The strategy of celibacy is challenging in one way (though some persons are especially qualified for it), while the non-celibate strategy is challenging in another way, certainly not easier as far as the actual liberation is concerned, though we like to believe there can be an easier way.

As for the issue of sexual misconduct amongst “Buddhist” teachers, the same thing occurs amongst non-celibate tantrikas... People always find their excuses, I'm afraid. :rolleye:
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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by DGA » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:24 pm

Tārāmitra wrote:
Nemo wrote:Having lived in a monastery many people have no idea how strong their sexual urges can be. They cannot even imagine the challenges of celibacy. They are caught unprepared and act out in often ridiculous and insane ways. Some with a magical bent even attract the strangest events. Like beautiful naked horny mental patients running around highly isolated retreat locations. I give this creative force a certain respect.
Hilarious. But it is the case that one’s demons must be fully confronted to be conquered. Celibacy is one radical way of facing it (though not the only way).
have you done this? are you speaking from experience?

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by shaunc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
shaunc wrote:This is just a thought. I've noticed with sex abuse cases involving organised religions, predominantly Buddhist and Catholic but I can also remember one here in Australia that involved the Hindu religion. That sects that demand celibacy from their ordained members seem to be involved in these types of scandals more than sects that don't demand celibacy from their ordained members.
I can't recall many instances for example involving orthodox priests or priests from Japanese sects which generally speaking don't demand celibacy from their priests.
I mean, let's face it, celibacy does go against the natural order of things.
Buddhism is supposed to be a way to find our true nature and celibacy is not a part of true nature in any other animal I can think of so why would it be a part of a humans true nature.
'ccept that Sangharakshita was not a celibate AND there is no "natural order of things".
There is a natural order of things.
1. You're born
2. You grow
3. You reproduce
4. You get old
5. You die.

There are people that don't fit this mould of course but it's probably true for most people.

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Re: Fears mount over scale of Buddhist sect sexual abuse

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:35 pm

shaunc wrote:
Grigoris wrote:'ccept that Sangharakshita was not a celibate AND there is no "natural order of things".
There is a natural order of things.
1. You're born
2. You grow
3. You reproduce
4. You get old
5. You die.

There are people that don't fit this mould of course but it's probably true for most people.
How many kids for it to fit into the natural order? Is 7 kids enough or is it too unnatural?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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