"Deaths of despair"

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binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:Then I will be better equipped to be a barista. In general, I will be more literate and more adaptable than someone with a technical degree or technical school education.
You see, I am a great believer in education purely for the sake of learning.
Have you ever actually have to live and work like this?

My experience is that people are generally suspicious of those who seem educated but who work in lowly jobs.

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Malcolm
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:34 pm

binocular wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Then I will be better equipped to be a barista. In general, I will be more literate and more adaptable than someone with a technical degree or technical school education.
You see, I am a great believer in education purely for the sake of learning.
Have you ever actually have to live and work like this?
Sure. I worked a dishwasher for many years, then as a house painter, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:58 pm

binocular wrote:Clearly, you're not educated enough to recognize this line from "The Great Gatsby" and are unware of the context in which it was said.
You're right, never read The Great Gatsby or any other work by Fitzgerald, nor wanted to; never been that interested in pretentious literature, especially american pretentious literature.

Still a misogynistic statement.

dreambow
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by dreambow » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:03 am

It appears we are in despair when people queue up for hours to be hugged by Amritananda. Apparently well educated
white folk are there in droves. When asked about this huge number of people awaiting a hug she replied 'What does a
mother do? She gives her children a hug, maternal values are decreasing in both men and women. The qualities of a
mother are needed in both' Do people become infants, are their needs not being met? Are we being social engineered
into desperation? Apparently the logical mind can be bypassed when people are marginalized yet that isn't the full
story as many well heeled people cluster around her ...what's the pull?

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justsit
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by justsit » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:32 am

dreambow wrote:what's the pull?
Compassion? Unconditional acceptance?

Regardless of education and/or income, there are many people who are alone, who are lonely, who feel no love, who are never touched by another person. To feel some kind of love and affection, even a simple hug, can be a great comfort.

There are also many people who feel judged, for whatever reason. To feel accepted without judgment, even if only for a few moments, can be a great blessing.

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Mkoll
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Mkoll » Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:27 am

Wayfarer wrote:What was that saying I read in someone's signature? 'The reason they call it 'the American dream' is because you'd have to be asleep to believe in it.'
George Carlin, RIP.

Warning: foul language

phpBB [video]
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:29 am

Bristollad wrote:
binocular wrote:Clearly, you're not educated enough to recognize this line from "The Great Gatsby" and are unware of the context in which it was said.
You're right, never read The Great Gatsby or any other work by Fitzgerald, nor wanted to; never been that interested in pretentious literature, especially american pretentious literature.
Still a misogynistic statement.
Why bother with understanding when it is so much easier to judge, right?
Mahayana compassion!!

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:09 am

binocular wrote:
Bristollad wrote:
binocular wrote:Clearly, you're not educated enough to recognize this line from "The Great Gatsby" and are unware of the context in which it was said.
You're right, never read The Great Gatsby or any other work by Fitzgerald, nor wanted to; never been that interested in pretentious literature, especially american pretentious literature.
Still a misogynistic statement.
Why bother with understanding when it is so much easier to judge, right?
Mahayana compassion!!
So my choosing not to read The Great Gatsby, thereby not recognising your "quote" makes me uneducated and lacking in compassion?

Right...and here I was thinking Shantideva and Nagarjuna were some of the people to read for some pointers to realising compassion and wisdom. Now I find out all I need to do is read The Great Gatsby.

How happy I am that you've corrected my silly misunderstanding. :thanks:

binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:16 am

Bristollad wrote:So my choosing not to read The Great Gatsby, thereby not recognising your "quote" makes me uneducated and lacking in compassion?
Right...and here I was thinking Shantideva and Nagarjuna were some of the people to read for some pointers to realising compassion and wisdom. Now I find out all I need to do is read The Great Gatsby.
How happy I am that you've corrected my silly misunderstanding.
In the book, the character who says that line is Daisy, when she learns she has given birth to a daughter. As can be understood from the context, she says it out of resignation about the place of women in society.

Jumping to conclusions is an example of lacking in compassion.

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:12 am

binocular wrote:
Bristollad wrote:So my choosing not to read The Great Gatsby, thereby not recognising your "quote" makes me uneducated and lacking in compassion?
Right...and here I was thinking Shantideva and Nagarjuna were some of the people to read for some pointers to realising compassion and wisdom. Now I find out all I need to do is read The Great Gatsby.
How happy I am that you've corrected my silly misunderstanding.
In the book, the character who says that line is Daisy, when she learns she has given birth to a daughter. As can be understood from the context, she says it out of resignation about the place of women in society.

Jumping to conclusions is an example of lacking in compassion.
Thank you for explaining the context...but the way you used that quote is as if you've believed (feared?) it to be true. I still think that that is a misogynistic position.

Thinking someone is uneducated simply because they didn't read a book you chose (were made?) to read - that is jumping to conclusions. There are many books I haven't read (there are at least 150 million books in the British Library), and I will lose no sleep over Fitzgerald and his work.

dreambow
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by dreambow » Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:46 pm

Justsit may be right...all that hugging may bring about a feeling of acceptance. Queueing up is perhaps an odd way
to go about it. Shamans are also thought of as maternal, earthy, moist, life giving healers with that hands on approach.
You may very well feel loved in the hands of a shaman.

Rakz
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Rakz » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:29 pm

dreambow wrote:"People with liberal arts educations are generally better equipped in life" well in my neck of the woods you may end up working as a barista.
It doesn't help that both men and women are desperately competing for fewer full time jobs. The gender issue is totally overblown and high jacked
by vested interests....divide and conquer is the name of the game.
Truth

binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:40 pm

Bristollad wrote:Thank you for explaining the context...but the way you used that quote is as if you've believed (feared?) it to be true. I still think that that is a misogynistic position.
Of course it is misogynistic. It also appears to be true. Even in Buddhist circles.
Thinking someone is uneducated simply because they didn't read a book you chose (were made?) to read - that is jumping to conclusions.
It's not just any book, it's considered as one of the best works of modern literature.
Today, The Great Gatsby is widely considered to be a literary classic and a contender for the title "Great American Novel." In 1998, the Modern Library editorial board voted it the 20th century's best American novel and second best English-language novel of the same time period.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gatsby

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:10 pm

binocular wrote:
Bristollad wrote:Thank you for explaining the context...but the way you used that quote is as if you've believed (feared?) it to be true. I still think that that is a misogynistic position.
Of course it is misogynistic. It also appears to be true. Even in Buddhist circles.
Thinking someone is uneducated simply because they didn't read a book you chose (were made?) to read - that is jumping to conclusions.
It's not just any book, it's considered as one of the best works of modern literature.
Today, The Great Gatsby is widely considered to be a literary classic and a contender for the title "Great American Novel." In 1998, the Modern Library editorial board voted it the 20th century's best American novel and second best English-language novel of the same time period.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gatsby
So you do think, "The best a girl can be in this world is a beautiful little fool", in which case I'm still glad you're not around my daughter.

As to whether The Great Gatsby is a decent book? I really don't care :shrug: It's just an opinion.
Waterstones is a bookstore chain with more than 200 stores in the United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland and Europe. In January 1997, Waterstones announced the results of its Books of the Century poll to find out what the public considered to be the hundred greatest books of the twentieth century. Over 25, 000 people took part in the poll and the Book of the Century was revealed as J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.
https://www.librarything.com/bookaward/ ... he+Century

In this list, The Great Gatsby only ranks 12th. If I was to produce a list, it wouldn't be on it. Just opinion.

dreambow
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by dreambow » Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:31 am

How can we enjoy a 1st world lifestyle by buying rebadged 3rd world products at 1st world prices with 3rd world wages and work conditions? It has not only impacted our personal life (with chronic illnesses and depression) but also the environment by thoughtless dumping and digging of the earth often leaving a wasteland.
As for 'The great Gatsby' fabulous book to read at age 20 but I don't think I could reread it now!

binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:57 pm

Bristollad wrote:So you do think, "The best a girl can be in this world is a beautiful little fool", in which case I'm still glad you're not around my daughter.
I wonder what you say to your daughter if she ever has hangups about becomning what mainstream society expects her to become.
In this list, The Great Gatsby only ranks 12th. If I was to produce a list, it wouldn't be on it. Just opinion.
Where I come from, one has to read books by the hundreds.
Oh, and as you've said, you've never even read it.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:57 pm

You can't not like 'The Great Gatsby.' It's got the best sentences in, like, ever.
John Michael Green (best selling author)
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:04 pm

binocular wrote:
Bristollad wrote:So you do think, "The best a girl can be in this world is a beautiful little fool", in which case I'm still glad you're not around my daughter.
I wonder what you say to your daughter if she ever has hangups about becomning what mainstream society expects her to become.
In this list, The Great Gatsby only ranks 12th. If I was to produce a list, it wouldn't be on it. Just opinion.
Where I come from, one has to read books by the hundreds.
Oh, and as you've said, you've never even read it.
Which is why it wouldn't be on my list...and yes I've read thousands of books in my lifetime too, though I've only ever had (been forced) to read maybe 20; all my life I've read for pleasure and interest, not because I had to - you still seem to believe I'm uneducated and illiterate :lol:

My daughter's 23 by the way, and happy doing the many things that she wants to do. Why do you presume she has to become what society expects her to? And which of society's expectations of her do you think are likely to give her hangups? (Which society are you even talking about, because it doesn't sound like your situation and mine are at all similar!)
Pure Azaelis wrote:John Michael Green
I haven't read him either, though my daughter tells me that The Faults in Our stars was a reasonable book and a crap film. I'm happy to accept her opinion and feel no need to borrow it to check if I agree - got two books on the go at the moment anyway: Ocean of Reasoning and Meditation on the Nature of the Mind. That's enough to keep my brain cells busy!

binocular
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:19 am

Bristollad wrote:Which is why it wouldn't be on my list...and yes I've read thousands of books in my lifetime too, though I've only ever had (been forced) to read maybe 20; all my life I've read for pleasure and interest, not because I had to - you still seem to believe I'm uneducated and illiterate
Where I come from, if a person doesn't know the greatest works of the major world literatures, they are regarded as uneducated.
If you haven't read Goethe's Faust, for example, you're regarded as uneducated, no matter what else you might have read.
Why do you presume she has to become what society expects her to?
What makes you think I presume that?
And which of society's expectations of her do you think are likely to give her hangups?
I don't know, you've brought in issues of likelihood.
(Which society are you even talking about, because it doesn't sound like your situation and mine are at all similar!)
The society that expects, for example, that women engage in sex even when they don't want to have children; the society that expects women to readily accept the risks and sacrifices that a woman, due to the specific of the female body, must make when using contraceptives (esp. hormonal ones) and risking unwanted pregnancies and having abortions.

Bristollad
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Re: "Deaths of despair"

Post by Bristollad » Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:53 pm

binocular wrote: Where I come from, if a person doesn't know the greatest works of the major world literatures, they are regarded as uneducated.
If you haven't read Goethe's Faust, for example, you're regarded as uneducated, no matter what else you might have read.
Oh that's okay, then, read Faust (well part one...in translation anyway). You do recognise that it's a completely arbitary measure, don't you? As far as my maternal grandfather was concerned, if you didn't recognise the songs of the birds you heard or the trees you saw whilst out walking, you were uneducated. My paternal grandfather on the other hand thought the measure of education was being able to calculate bookmaker's odds in your head.
binocular wrote:
Why do you presume she has to become what society expects her to?
What makes you think I presume that?
And which of society's expectations of her do you think are likely to give her hangups?
I don't know, you've brought in issues of likelihood.
I'm just responding to your question - you asked, "I wonder what you say to your daughter if she ever has hangups about becomning what mainstream society expects her to become." This seems to presume she will have to become what society expects and that that will likely give her hangups...
(Which society are you even talking about, because it doesn't sound like your situation and mine are at all similar!)
The society that expects, for example, that women engage in sex even when they don't want to have children; the society that expects women to readily accept the risks and sacrifices that a woman, due to the specific of the female body, must make when using contraceptives (esp. hormonal ones) and risking unwanted pregnancies and having abortions.
Why do you think women only want to engage in sex if they want children, that they are forced into having sex at other times? It may have slipped your notice, but some people find sex pleasurable in and of itself, and that not all pleasurable sex is penetrative.

And you still haven't said, where is this cultural paradise where all are expected to read, "the greatest works of the major world literatures" but where women are downtrodden and don't want to engage in sex but are forced to?

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