deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Tiago Simões » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm
Yes, there is one of those kinds of farm stands everywhere in my town, and everywhere in my county. You want meat, you go up the street to get it from a freezer with no one standing around, you just leave your money. You want milk, same deal. Eggs, go for it. Maple syrup, you got it. And during the summer, everyone puts out their produce in unattended farm stands. But Kirt still refuses to move to Western Massachusetts because he seems to prefer the urban hell of the greater DC area.
Holy S**t! Those freezers would get jacked over night where I live.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Virgo » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:16 pm

shaunc wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:07 pm
Virgo wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:19 pm


Yes, there is one of those kinds of farm stands everywhere in my town, and everywhere in my county. You want meat, you go up the street to get it from a freezer with no one standing around, you just leave your money. You want milk, same deal. Eggs, go for it. Maple syrup, you got it. And during the summer, everyone puts out their produce in unattended farm stands.
I wish I could still get duck eggs locally. I used to work with a guy that kept ducks and I used to get eggs off of him. I really enjoyed the duck eggs becuse they are very substantial, heavy, and rich.

Virgo
I keep poultry as a hobby and as a kid my mother kept ducks. Duck eggs are the best ones for bakers. I've never eaten a duck egg except in cakes etc.
Yes they are used for baking frequently, but they can be prepared any way a chicken egg can be.

Kevin

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm

And another 17 murdered, aided by the neglect of US politicians to act:

Image
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:27 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm
And another 17 murdered, aided by the neglect of US politicians to act:

Image
While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, i'm gonna play devil's advocate here to keep the conversation on this going:

Given that the market has been saturated with AR 15's here for a while now, and they are simply "out there" what do you think congress could realistically do that would have an immediate effect on these sorts of mass shootings? I agree it's crazy, I just hear this sentiment a lot, that somehow congress could just pass some laws and it'd get better...i'm skeptical. You've been able to buy AR 15's at places like Walmart etc. for a while now, they are all over.

IMO it is something akin to big tobacco, the threat of civil suit after exposing things like the gun industry's marketing etc. is more likely to create a sea change than legislation, though I would certainly support sensible legislation.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:27 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm
And another 17 murdered, aided by the neglect of US politicians to act:

Image
While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, i'm gonna play devil's advocate here to keep the conversation on this going:

Given that the market has been saturated with AR 15's here for a while now, and they are simply "out there" what do you think congress could realistically do that would have an immediate effect on these sorts of mass shootings? I agree it's crazy, I just hear this sentiment a lot, that somehow congress could just pass some laws and it'd get better...i'm skeptical. You've been able to buy AR 15's at places like Walmart etc. for a while now, they are all over.

IMO it is something akin to big tobacco, the threat of civil suit after exposing things like the gun industry's marketing etc. is more likely to create a sea change than legislation, though I would certainly support sensible legislation.
All that means is that it will take a long time and need really dedicated effort and a juducial system willing to back it up with prosecution etc. Guns float around in many coutries after wars. Most people are sane enough to realise they are no longer essential and hand them.

The US as a nation seems happy to let the people of the US conduct armed warfare against each other. Why else have they not elected enough people who wish to stop the madness and disempower the NRA, and will go ahead and do it?

It is such an irony that Trump points at incidents in other countries as evidence of major terrorism problems whilst creating and sponsoring terrorism at home on a scale worthy of South American drugs cartels. I probably understated that.
I wonder what the ratio is between those killed in the last 12 months by Islamic terrorists compared with school massacres by mad or bad young men.

The cartoon really does show the situation well. Any minute now Trump will say that there were bad people on both sides and that the school was at fault for annoying the gunman, and that the teachers should all have had the gunpower to execute the kid before he could kill so many. Yup, that will be his thinking. Yeehah!
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:34 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:27 pm
Given that the market has been saturated with AR 15's here for a while now, and they are simply "out there" what do you think congress could realistically do that would have an immediate effect on these sorts of mass shootings? I agree it's crazy, I just hear this sentiment a lot, that somehow congress could just pass some laws and it'd get better...i'm skeptical. You've been able to buy AR 15's at places like Walmart etc. for a while now, they are all over.
They had the same problem in Australia when they decided to ban all semi-automatic and automatic rifles and pistols. First they made people register these weapons. Then they made manufacturers/retailers recall existing weapons. They then took these and destroyed them. Then they declared an amnesty and asked people to voluntarily hand them in (receiving recompense for the weapons handed in). Then they went through their files and demanded people hand in the weapons. After all this, anybody found with a weapon of this type was fined heavily and charged criminally and the weapon was confiscated and destroyed. Took a while, but it worked perfectly.

After this they also introduced a number of tests, compulsory training and other hurdles for people; even to acquire a licence to own a shotgun or hunt. It is possible, if the political will exists.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:34 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:27 pm
Given that the market has been saturated with AR 15's here for a while now, and they are simply "out there" what do you think congress could realistically do that would have an immediate effect on these sorts of mass shootings? I agree it's crazy, I just hear this sentiment a lot, that somehow congress could just pass some laws and it'd get better...i'm skeptical. You've been able to buy AR 15's at places like Walmart etc. for a while now, they are all over.
The had the same problem is Australia when they decided to ban all semi-automatic and automatic rifles and pistols. First they made people register these weapons. Then they made manufacturers/retailers recall existing weapons. They then took these and destroyed them. Then they declared an amnesty and asked people to voluntarily hand them in (receiving recompense for the weapons handed in). Then they went through their files and demanded people hand in the weapons. After all this, anybody found with a weapon of this type was fined heavily and charged criminally and the weapon was confiscated and destroyed. Took a while, but it worked perfectly.

After this they also introduced a number of tests, compulsory training and other hurdles for people even to acquire a licence to own a shotgun or hunt. It is possible, if the political will exists.
This would work in the US, too, if our political class would do it. Especially a buy-back kind of program which would be much less expensive than having to treat so many wounded students and teachers. Apparently the US is having one school shooting every 60 hours this year and no signs of it slowing down.

But as I see it such thoughtful and well-executed plans like Australia's have little chance of succeeding here for the time being. :cry:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:49 pm

I can't see a program like that working in the US at all. The only people here that would favor a program like that are likely middle class urbanites who already don't own guns. So even if the political class had the will, I don't think most of the gun owners would. IIRC Australias population is also slightly larger than the greater LA area, so even on a practical level there are real impediments.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:49 pm
I can't see a program like that working in the US at all. The only people here that would favor a program like that are likely middle class urbanites who already don't own guns. So even if the political class had the will, I don't think most of the gun owners would. IIRC Australias population is also slightly larger than the greater LA area, so even on a practical level there are real impediments.
It can be handled at a state level, with federal backing and legislation. Even in Australia the ockers didn't hand in their weapons and some illegal weapons continued to drift around, but ultimately (and with persistence) the program worked. What frightens me is when liberals like yourself fail to see the viability of a program like this, a program which has been applied and worked. That means that there is no real support for something like this, even by those who one would assume would support it, in which case it is doomed to failure.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by fuki » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:57 pm
but ultimately (and with persistence) the program worked.
In for a penny, in for a pound. :twothumbsup:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:49 pm
I can't see a program like that working in the US at all. The only people here that would favor a program like that are likely middle class urbanites who already don't own guns. So even if the political class had the will, I don't think most of the gun owners would. IIRC Australias population is also slightly larger than the greater LA area, so even on a practical level there are real impediments.
It can be handled at a state level, with federal backing and legislation. Even in Australia the ockers didn't hand in their weapons and some illegal weapons continued to drift around, but ultimately (and with persistence) the program worked. What frightens me is when liberals like yourself fail to see the viability of a program like this, a program which has been applied and worked. That means that there is no real support for something like this, even by those who one would assume would support it, in which case it is doomed to failure.
It is sometimes also mistakenly equated to the difficulty of knife control and the failure of knife amnesties to obtain weapons from gangs. The hugely significant difference is the element of control available through the necessity for ammunition. Sure, you can make your own, but it is a limitation for most would-be shooters.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Queequeg » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:20 pm

The AU plan won't work. Aside from lack of political will, there is the 2nd amendment that, in the least, will tie any such efforts in litigation.

To overcome the 2nd amendment, a law would need to pass a standard called "Strict Scrutiny" which requires laws infringing on civil rights to be narrowly tailored and related to a compelling state interest.

Since congress is resistant to declaring the regulation of guns a compelling state interest, Obama tried to lay the groundwork for this finding by ordering government health agencies to look at guns as a health crisis. If guns could be declared a threat to health, that would serve as a "compelling state interest" (not that gun deaths, on their face could not be considered a threat to health). The NIH which was pursuing this research cut funding last fall.

The attack on big tobacco provides a promising approach for states to address the issue.

Regulating ammunition makes too much sense.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DNS » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:32 pm

There was an assault weapons ban in the U.S. back in 1994 under Bill Clinton. It expired in 2004 and was not renewed. But it could be renewed, if the Dems can win both houses of Congress and the White House; which is very possible in 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_A ... eapons_Ban

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:57 pm

If you like the war on drugs your going to love the war on guns!

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:05 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:57 pm
If you like the war on drugs your going to love the war on guns!
What does that even mean?
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:41 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:32 pm
There was an assault weapons ban in the U.S. back in 1994 under Bill Clinton. It expired in 2004 and was not renewed. But it could be renewed, if the Dems can win both houses of Congress and the White House; which is very possible in 2020.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_A ... eapons_Ban
Did this ban apply to weapons like the AR 15? I recall that it did not. How would a ban on this sort of weapon even work, now that they are everywhere?
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:05 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:57 pm
If you like the war on drugs your going to love the war on guns!
What does that even mean?
It's worth considering, the US has a history of prohibition of contraband turning into yet another war on poor people. I expect that punitive legislation would play out much like the war on drugs has here. I agree something needs to be done, I'm just guessing a successful solution will be more like addressing a public health crisis.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DNS » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:58 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:41 pm
Did this ban apply to weapons like the AR 15? I recall that it did not. How would a ban on this sort of weapon even work, now that they are everywhere?
Yes, it included the AR-15. However, overall it was still a pretty weak law in that it had:
The Act included a "grandfather clause" that allowed for the possession and transfer of weapons and ammunition that "were otherwise lawfully possessed on the date of enactment".
In other words, one could keep any assault weapons already in their possession or even still buy one from someone who owned one prior to the ban. It just stopped future manufacture of assault weapons from that point on.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 pm

DNS wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:41 pm
Did this ban apply to weapons like the AR 15? I recall that it did not. How would a ban on this sort of weapon even work, now that they are everywhere?
Yes, it included the AR-15. However, overall it was still a pretty weak law in that it had:
The Act included a "grandfather clause" that allowed for the possession and transfer of weapons and ammunition that "were otherwise lawfully possessed on the date of enactment".
In other words, one could keep any assault weapons already in their possession or even still buy one from someone who owned one prior to the ban. It just stopped future manufacture of assault weapons from that point on.
Didn't realize that.

Stopping or limiting manufacture sounds great.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:15 am

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:27 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm
And another 17 murdered, aided by the neglect of US politicians to act:

Image
While I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment, i'm gonna play devil's advocate here to keep the conversation on this going:

Given that the market has been saturated with AR 15's here for a while now, and they are simply "out there" what do you think congress could realistically do that would have an immediate effect on these sorts of mass shootings? I agree it's crazy, I just hear this sentiment a lot, that somehow congress could just pass some laws and it'd get better...i'm skeptical. You've been able to buy AR 15's at places like Walmart etc. for a while now, they are all over.

IMO it is something akin to big tobacco, the threat of civil suit after exposing things like the gun industry's marketing etc. is more likely to create a sea change than legislation, though I would certainly support sensible legislation.
All that means is that it will take a long time and need really dedicated effort and a juducial system willing to back it up with prosecution etc. Guns float around in many coutries after wars. Most people are sane enough to realise they are no longer essential and hand them.

The US as a nation seems happy to let the people of the US conduct armed warfare against each other. Why else have they not elected enough people who wish to stop the madness and disempower the NRA, and will go ahead and do it?

It is such an irony that Trump points at incidents in other countries as evidence of major terrorism problems whilst creating and sponsoring terrorism at home on a scale worthy of South American drugs cartels. I probably understated that.
I wonder what the ratio is between those killed in the last 12 months by Islamic terrorists compared with school massacres by mad or bad young men.

The cartoon really does show the situation well. Any minute now Trump will say that there were bad people on both sides and that the school was at fault for annoying the gunman, and that the teachers should all have had the gunpower to execute the kid before he could kill so many. Yup, that will be his thinking. Yeehah!
:good:

Apparently the Swiss, Germans and Israelis all have gun control plans that would work better in the US than the Australians. Stopping the sales of semi automatic guns, ammo etc would be a good start. I think all of these latest nuts bought their guns new at shops legally. The NRA and Trump are the mental ones, trying to blame everything on mental illness and a decline in moral values. Of course these guys are mental, but they had the ability to purchase guns and indulge their sickness as
no where else in the world could happen.

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