deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:39 am

I think people having the ability to sue gun manufacturers similar to what happened with Big Tobacco is all that will ever change this. AFAIK right now it is impossible, they can't be held responsible for anything, even when they do stuff like sell more deadly ammunition as "zombie bullets", which is amazing on many levels.

I have shot a gun or two in my time, and I am not averse to people owning them, but sometimes i'll talk to people who own AR 15's and things like Zombie bullets and just wonder what the hell they are thinking.
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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:07 am

Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:29 am
How would you counter the average gun nuts arguments made against Chicago's failed gun laws, and in particular the honest guys are the only ones that will turn in the guns leaving only the criminals armed?
Canada
Britain
Australia
New Zealand
France
Germany, etc.

This is the best argument there is, just like Universal Health Care. The United States probably needs to shift its economic model from a liberal market economy which emphasizes growth, to a coordinated market economy which emphasizes stability. The problem is that it will very hard for the US to make this transition for cultural reasons.

In other words, the US would have to go into gun addiction counseling for a decade before gun laws are really going to change in the whole country.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:53 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:01 pm

This one is even better...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:06 pm

One more...

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:07 am
Lukeinaz wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:29 am
How would you counter the average gun nuts arguments made against Chicago's failed gun laws, and in particular the honest guys are the only ones that will turn in the guns leaving only the criminals armed?
Canada
Britain
Australia
New Zealand
France
Germany, etc.

This is the best argument there is, just like Universal Health Care. The United States probably needs to shift its economic model from a liberal market economy which emphasizes growth, to a coordinated market economy which emphasizes stability. The problem is that it will very hard for the US to make this transition for cultural reasons.

In other words, the US would have to go into gun addiction counseling for a decade before gun laws are really going to change in the whole country.
In New Zealand even the police on the streets do not carry guns. They are armed with pepper spray, tasers and a baton.

Only SWAT teams, airport and port police carry guns.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Lindama
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Lindama » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:18 am

ofc, gun control

Violence reaps violence.... sad to say that karma is coming back to the USA. War and killing in the name of empire returns to us/US. The USA was founded on violent and is in danger of ending on violence.
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not this morning,
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by fuki » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:40 am

Lindama wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:18 am
ofc, gun control

Violence reaps violence.... sad to say that karma is coming back to the USA. War and killing in the name of empire returns to us/US. The USA was founded on violent and is in danger of ending on violence.
Linda today I was looking at a twitter account, when I scrolled down to look at the comments (republicans vs democrats) I was shocked to see the civil war of words unfolding, ppl hating and wishing others dead, one could say "it's just words" but we know what it evolves in (in this form or the next) there may be a physical war in many countries but the US to my mind seems like the most violent country present day, just in the minds of ppl. Folks should be careful its not too late to stop this madness of blaming the other party for everything, and its on the ppl not Trump, Hillary or Kim.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:32 am

be-like-aus.jpg
be-like-aus.jpg (48.67 KiB) Viewed 393 times
:meditate:

:jedi:

:namaste:
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Fa Dao
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm

I am sure that a lot of people here are going to strongly disagree with this but what worked in Australia will not work here in the US...period. American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country. "Shot heard around the world", Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, The Alamo, The wild west, cowboys and indians, the quickdraw gunfighter, Tombstone, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, Bat Masterson, Louis and Clarke, Have Gun Will Travel, Hopalong Cassidy, The Rifleman, Bonanza, all of the various cop shows, all of the various war movies and shows, Lethal Weapon, The Terminator...I think you all get the picture. Glorifying the hero who goes against all odds and prevails has been the narrative for over 200 years in books, folk stories, TV, movies, etc etc.
Bottomline is that making more and more laws will not work either...there is no quick fix for this...it will take at least a couple of generations of concentrated effort to change the narrative to a deeply held reverence for all life to the point that it trumps the longstanding narrative of the hero, guns, and violence....
just one mans opinion....
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Jeff H » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm
I am sure that a lot of people here are going to strongly disagree with this but what worked in Australia will not work here in the US...period. American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country. "Shot heard around the world", Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, The Alamo, The wild west, cowboys and indians, the quickdraw gunfighter, Tombstone, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, Bat Masterson, Louis and Clarke, Have Gun Will Travel, Hopalong Cassidy, The Rifleman, Bonanza, all of the various cop shows, all of the various war movies and shows, Lethal Weapon, The Terminator...I think you all get the picture. Glorifying the hero who goes against all odds and prevails has been the narrative for over 200 years in books, folk stories, TV, movies, etc etc.
Bottomline is that making more and more laws will not work either...there is no quick fix for this...it will take at least a couple of generations of concentrated effort to change the narrative to a deeply held reverence for all life to the point that it trumps the longstanding narrative of the hero, guns, and violence....
just one mans opinion....
I think many here agree with you on this point. You got a lot of flack some time ago when you supported the “good guy with a gun” solution to bad guys with guns. Now you’re pointing out that the “good guy” of myth is a lot of hooey in life, and it has precipitated some nasty collective karma for the American culture.

But that scenario, on a personal level, is the basis of Buddhadharma. There’s a lot of positive karma in America too and it would seem to be at least theoretically possible that there’s still a way to purify that violent karma. It’s all a question of whether enough of the right people can come to question the violent hero myth and its attendant rage. If not, well karma happens.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:12 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm
I am sure that a lot of people here are going to strongly disagree with this but what worked in Australia will not work here in the US...period. American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country. "Shot heard around the world", Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, The Alamo, The wild west, cowboys and indians, the quickdraw gunfighter, Tombstone, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, Bat Masterson, Louis and Clarke, Have Gun Will Travel, Hopalong Cassidy, The Rifleman, Bonanza, all of the various cop shows, all of the various war movies and shows, Lethal Weapon, The Terminator...I think you all get the picture. Glorifying the hero who goes against all odds and prevails has been the narrative for over 200 years in books, folk stories, TV, movies, etc etc.
Bottomline is that making more and more laws will not work either...there is no quick fix for this...it will take at least a couple of generations of concentrated effort to change the narrative to a deeply held reverence for all life to the point that it trumps the longstanding narrative of the hero, guns, and violence....
just one mans opinion....
Actually, the idea that the 2nd Amendment meant that everyone had a right to own an individual firearm is really a post-Civil war interpretation by the SCOTUS. Prior to this, the idea that everyone was entitled to gun was highly contested, and the 2nd Amendment was broadly understood to mean that the right to bear arms was for the purpose of mustering state militias, since there was no professional army in the United States until 1791, shortly after the Constitution was ratified. Prior to the civil war, rifles and pistols were very expensive, costing a year's salary, and most people did not own firearms. However, there was also the Bliss decision in Kentucky that argued that the right to bear arms was personal. However, the Arkansas Buzzard decision, known as the Arkansas Doctrine, came down on the side of the militia interpretation. The turning point came after the Civil War over the question of whether freed slaves had the right to bear arms. At the same time, the availability of inexpensive, mass-produced firearms fostered catalogue sales of pistols and rifles during the westward expansion of the US, and advertising campaigns to sell these weapons were widespread. This is really the source of the "gun culture" of the US -- it was manufactured by marketing people.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Jeff H » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:45 pm

In the NY Times on Friday, A ‘Mass Shooting Generation’ Cries Out for Change*
This is life for the children of the mass shooting generation. They were born into
a world reshaped by the 1999 attack at Columbine High School in Colorado, and
grew up practicing active shooter drills and huddling through lockdowns. They
talked about threats and safety steps with their parents and teachers. With friends,
they wondered darkly whether it could happen at their own school, and who might
do it.

“People say it’s too early to talk about it,” Mr. Kasky [11th grade] said. “If you ask me, it’s way
too late.”

His argument reflects the words of other students who want action: The issue is
not an abstraction to them. These are their murdered friends, their bloodstained
schools, their upended lives.

Students said they did not want to cede the discussion over their lives to
politicians and adult activists.

“We need to take it into our hands,” Mr. Kasky said.

David Hogg, a 17-year-old student journalist who interviewed his classmates
during the rampage in Parkland, said he had thought about the possibility of a school
shooting long before shots from an AR-15 started to blast through the hallways. As
he huddled with fellow students, he stayed calm and decided to try to create a record
of their thoughts and views that would live on, even if the worst happened to them.
* Oops. I included the wrong url in my original posting.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:05 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm
I am sure that a lot of people here are going to strongly disagree with this but what worked in Australia will not work here in the US...period. American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country.
You obviously have no idea about (white) Australian culture. AND you obviously did not watch the videos I posted. Especially the whoop-dee-doo video.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:01 pm

Since people think it's a mental health issue, my idea is a required psychological evaluation and background check for anyone trying to purchase these guns. In addition to a criminal background check, access to your mental health history, academic record, employment, social media history...which all goes into the psychologist's bio-psycho-social investigation, as well as an in-depth interview. And you pay for it. If you can't do this, do you really need an AR-15? Your probably what Trump would call a "loser" who doesn't "deserve" an AR-15. :meditate:

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:10 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:01 pm
Since people think it's a mental health issue, my idea is a required psychological evaluation and background check for anyone trying to purchase these guns. In addition to a criminal background check, access to your mental health history, academic record, employment, social media history...which all goes into the psychologist's bio-psycho-social investigation, as well as an in-depth interview. And you pay for it. If you can't do this, do you really need an AR-15? Your probably what Trump would call a "loser" who doesn't "deserve" an AR-15. :meditate:
It's a public health issue at this point—and of course the CDC is forbidden to research it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Fa Dao
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Fa Dao » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:05 pm
Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:20 pm
I am sure that a lot of people here are going to strongly disagree with this but what worked in Australia will not work here in the US...period. American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country.
You obviously have no idea about (white) Australian culture. AND you obviously did not watch the videos I posted. Especially the whoop-dee-doo video.
True..I have about as much knowledge of Australian culture as you do about American...oh, and theres this guy who says otherwise as well...
https://psmag.com/news/australia-ambassador-gun-laws
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:54 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:53 pm
True..I have about as much knowledge of Australian culture as you do about American...
Sorry to inform you that you are 100% wrong.

Tell me what you know about the great Australian hero Ned Kelly. What about the Eureka stockade?

See out here in the rest of the world we get Amerikan culture and history rammed into our various orifices on a daily basis. It is a constant and inescapable onslaught. In Amerika, on the other hand...

Just because you are ignorant of what is happening in the rest of the world does not mean that the rest of us are ignorant about Amerika.

As for this:
American culture is too deeply entrenched with heroes, guns and violence going all the way back to the founding of this country.
Cultures change. What you call Amerikan culture right now was not Amerikan cultrue during the 60's, nor will it be Amerikan culture in another 50 years. If Amerikans wish to push their country in a positive direction they can, if they want to continue screwing the rest of the planet, they will. It is up to them to decide. It is quite obvious what you have decided. Luckily there are people out there that think otherwise.
and theres this guy who says otherwise as well...
I am not interested in listening to pessimists. As a Buddhist I know change is inevitable. That change can be for the better or for the worse. It is up to us to decide which it will be. I prefer to listen to the school kids that will be striking, in order to make the people in Washington understand. I am much more interested in what the kids have to say. They will be shaping the future of the U$, not some jaded politician.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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fuki
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by fuki » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:54 pm
That change can be for the better or for the worse. It is up to us to decide which it will be. I prefer to listen to the school kids that will be striking in order to make people in Washington understand. I am much more interested what the kids have to say. The will be shaping the future of the U$, not some jaded politician.
I was touched by the kids speech, reminded me of the marches for the black people in US history. I agree to not dwell on the negatives and just keep trying and marching for positive change, no matter how long it takes. :smile:
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:10 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:01 pm
Since people think it's a mental health issue, my idea is a required psychological evaluation and background check for anyone trying to purchase these guns. In addition to a criminal background check, access to your mental health history, academic record, employment, social media history...which all goes into the psychologist's bio-psycho-social investigation, as well as an in-depth interview. And you pay for it. If you can't do this, do you really need an AR-15? Your probably what Trump would call a "loser" who doesn't "deserve" an AR-15. :meditate:
It's a public health issue at this point—and of course the CDC is forbidden to research it.
It sure is. I feel a change is coming, though. All the pro NRA gun folk I know have remained awfully quiet on social media this time around. Their arguments just aren't making much sense, even to them anymore (I think).

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