deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:09 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:02 pm

People in the UK try to equate the US gun problem with UK knife crime. If you train for many years you may be able to avoid death against a trained knife attacker, if you are also trained and have a knife to hand. I wonder how that compares with two guys armed with assault rifles.......could Trump's scenario of a teacher armed with a concealed carry pistol have any chance? What if he had an assault rifle 'in his locker', was somehow able to reach it, prepare, and face the attacker, what then? Would he too need years of training to stand a chance?
The difference is spatial. You have to get close to do damage with a blade. A situation involving an idiot with an assault rifle is much more chaotic than a situation involving someone with a balisong who has done her sinawali drills, and while your odds are better the further away you get, you have to get a lot further away to avoid dying.

Honestly, though: if I had to choose between the risk of getting stabbed on a train platform in Bradford or getting shot by a nut with an ar-15 on the street in Sacramento, I'd take my chances in Sacramento.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:15 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:32 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:19 pm
How long, I wonder, before you can get arrested in the US for not having a gun; clearly abberrant behaviour.
There are towns in the US where the head of household is legally required to own and keep a gun in the home, for example, Kennesaw, GA.
Understandable in Switzerland, where they are military reservists, but in US households one wonders how many intruders are shot and how many are used to kill each other.
Important context:

Gun ownership in the US is actually not so popular as you might think, even though there is a metric shit-ton of weaponry piled up. How so? The Guardian did a good job laying this out some months ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... statistics

Less that one-third of US households own a firearm today. That's less than it has been in decades past. So proportionately fewer households own guns. How, then, to explain the trend of increased gun ownership? About 3% of the population are hoarding weapons and ammo.

And these aren't sport weapons anymore. The "tactical turn" is a real problem. This is a change in US gun culture that has happened over the last twenty years or so. When I was in my early 20s, most of the guns for sale at your local sporting goods outlet would be explicitly for hunting or basic home or self defense. Think of the typical 30-06 Springfield hunting rifle with a walnut stock, or your grandfather's duck gun. These pieces are more fun to shoot than a "tactical" weapon like an ar-15, but they have fallen out of favor with the macho-insecurity set.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:27 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:09 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:02 pm

People in the UK try to equate the US gun problem with UK knife crime. If you train for many years you may be able to avoid death against a trained knife attacker, if you are also trained and have a knife to hand. I wonder how that compares with two guys armed with assault rifles.......could Trump's scenario of a teacher armed with a concealed carry pistol have any chance? What if he had an assault rifle 'in his locker', was somehow able to reach it, prepare, and face the attacker, what then? Would he too need years of training to stand a chance?
The difference is spatial. You have to get close to do damage with a blade. A situation involving an idiot with an assault rifle is much more chaotic than a situation involving someone with a balisong who has done her sinawali drills, and while your odds are better the further away you get, you have to get a lot further away to avoid dying.

Honestly, though: if I had to choose between the risk of getting stabbed on a train platform in Bradford or getting shot by a nut with an ar-15 on the street in Sacramento, I'd take my chances in Sacramento.
Exactly, although the 'risk' of being stabbed, even in Bradford, is very tiny unless you are in a gang feud.

In the case of the assault rifles, I would support the view that unless you are in a Steven Seagal movie, as the teacher responding to a wild attack or a precise and professional shooting, or a sniper scenario, your chances are very very slim. I heard today that some of the affected schools already have armed security staff, who by mischance or cowardice, never met the killers. I really hope that one day Trump is actually faced with gun violence - I predict that if he was armed to the teeth he would still piss in his pants and scream like a stuck piggy.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by No_Mind » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:07 am

Something I have always wondered about .. regarding the connection being drawn between mental health and gun violence .. can sub-optimal mental health cause people to kill others?

Assuming that percentage of those suffering from mental health problems are same throughout the world on the whole .. there are very few reports of mass knife attackers from rest of the world (apart from maybe China). A sick man armed with a scimitar can do a lot of damage .. kill or maim at least 5 before he is caught .. but such incidents are rare.

There has to be some other motivation behind rising gun violence, that we have seen from the days of Columbine, which we are yet to understand.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:18 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:07 am
Something I have always wondered about .. regarding the connection being drawn between mental health and gun violence .. can sub-optimal mental health cause people to kill others?

Assuming that percentage of those suffering from mental health problems are same throughout the world on the whole .. there are very few reports of mass knife attackers from rest of the world (apart from maybe China). A sick man armed with a scimitar can do a lot of damage .. kill or maim at least 5 before he is caught .. but such incidents are rare.

There has to be some other motivation behind rising gun violence, that we have seen from the days of Columbine, which we are yet to understand.

:namaste:

Yes, I think there is definitely a correlation between poor mental health services and gun violence. Unfortunately, mental health care in the United States is inadequate to the needs of many people. I can say with confidence that many members of my own family suffered and died prematurely in part due to undiagnosed mental health issues; their lives would have been much fuller and brighter had the right interventions been in place for them.

My country does many things well, but we do not care for the elderly, the vulnerable, the poor, or the sick properly at all. There is a shortcoming of empathy and solidarity with those who suffer. And this has serious consequences here.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by PeterC » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:51 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:15 pm
Important context:

Gun ownership in the US is actually not so popular as you might think, even though there is a metric shit-ton of weaponry piled up. How so? The Guardian did a good job laying this out some months ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... statistics

Less that one-third of US households own a firearm today. That's less than it has been in decades past. So proportionately fewer households own guns. How, then, to explain the trend of increased gun ownership? About 3% of the population are hoarding weapons and ammo.

And these aren't sport weapons anymore. The "tactical turn" is a real problem. This is a change in US gun culture that has happened over the last twenty years or so. When I was in my early 20s, most of the guns for sale at your local sporting goods outlet would be explicitly for hunting or basic home or self defense. Think of the typical 30-06 Springfield hunting rifle with a walnut stock, or your grandfather's duck gun. These pieces are more fun to shoot than a "tactical" weapon like an ar-15, but they have fallen out of favor with the macho-insecurity set.
Thanks for posting that article. The numbers do raise the question of how, exactly, the NRA became so politically powerful. Before Wayne LaPierre it really wasn't - GHB publicly cancelled his membership and criticized them over LaPierre's behaviour during his presidency, which is something unthinkable for a republican today. They've clearly done a remarkably good job of mobilizing the small, paranoid minority for whom this is an important issue. This segment - disproportionately rural, white and lower-income - was also very badly covered by the democrats over the past few decades.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:23 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:51 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:15 pm
Important context:

Gun ownership in the US is actually not so popular as you might think, even though there is a metric shit-ton of weaponry piled up. How so? The Guardian did a good job laying this out some months ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... statistics

Less that one-third of US households own a firearm today. That's less than it has been in decades past. So proportionately fewer households own guns. How, then, to explain the trend of increased gun ownership? About 3% of the population are hoarding weapons and ammo.

And these aren't sport weapons anymore. The "tactical turn" is a real problem. This is a change in US gun culture that has happened over the last twenty years or so. When I was in my early 20s, most of the guns for sale at your local sporting goods outlet would be explicitly for hunting or basic home or self defense. Think of the typical 30-06 Springfield hunting rifle with a walnut stock, or your grandfather's duck gun. These pieces are more fun to shoot than a "tactical" weapon like an ar-15, but they have fallen out of favor with the macho-insecurity set.
Thanks for posting that article. The numbers do raise the question of how, exactly, the NRA became so politically powerful. Before Wayne LaPierre it really wasn't - GHB publicly cancelled his membership and criticized them over LaPierre's behaviour during his presidency, which is something unthinkable for a republican today. They've clearly done a remarkably good job of mobilizing the small, paranoid minority for whom this is an important issue. This segment - disproportionately rural, white and lower-income - was also very badly covered by the democrats over the past few decades.
The NRA is a cult with a wide following. Guns and Jesus.


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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:52 am

Nothing will ever be done while the dogma of ‘guns=freedom’ reigns.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Jeff H » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:20 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:52 am
Nothing will ever be done while the dogma of ‘guns=freedom’ reigns.
This morning's NY Times summarized Wayne LaPierre's speech to the Conservative Political Action Conference as "a searing indictment ... against liberal Democrats, the news media and political opportunists ... joined together in a socialist plot to 'eradicate all individual freedoms'."

Perhaps we can adapt the New Hampshire state motto for the NRA States of America: Live free and kill.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:42 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 pm

Part of the solution is making soft targets like schools, businesses etc. harder. Many kinds of door blockers are available and are being used now in some schools.

This is one kind: https://www.bilco.com/Store/ProductDeta ... _Model_DSI
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 pm
Part of the solution is making soft targets like schools, businesses etc. harder. Many kinds of door blockers are available and are being used now in some schools.

This is one kind: https://www.bilco.com/Store/ProductDeta ... _Model_DSI
Part of the solution is not letting weapons be as it is, while adding things like door blockers thinking this is a great idea. What's next? Suggesting a line of bulletproof vests for kids as part of the solution?

No, the solution itself is to remove these weapons from civilian ownership. That is what will work. Nothing else.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 pm
Part of the solution is making soft targets like schools, businesses etc. harder. Many kinds of door blockers are available and are being used now in some schools.

This is one kind: https://www.bilco.com/Store/ProductDeta ... _Model_DSI
Part of the solution is not letting weapons be as it is, while adding things like door blockers thinking this is a great idea. What's next? Suggesting a line of bulletproof vests for kids as part of the solution?

No, the solution itself is to remove these weapons from civilian ownership. That is what will work. Nothing else.
A excellent example of making the best the enemy of the better.

Besides - Nothing else can be better than all making all beings buddhas. Why dabble with partial things like guns.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:17 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm
A excellent example of making the best the enemy of the better.

Besides - Nothing else can be better than all making all beings buddhas. Why dabble with partial things like guns.
Outside of America, I think the only place you will find metal detectors and armed guards at schools and other public facilities (hospitals, for example) are places like Afghanistan, Iraq, etc...

What does that tell you?

While we are busy assisting sentient beings to become Buddhas, let's also look at how we can keep them alive EFFECTIVELY.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:21 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:05 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 pm
Part of the solution is making soft targets like schools, businesses etc. harder. Many kinds of door blockers are available and are being used now in some schools.

This is one kind: https://www.bilco.com/Store/ProductDeta ... _Model_DSI
Part of the solution is not letting weapons be as it is, while adding things like door blockers thinking this is a great idea. What's next? Suggesting a line of bulletproof vests for kids as part of the solution?

No, the solution itself is to remove these weapons from civilian ownership. That is what will work. Nothing else.
A excellent example of making the best the enemy of the better.

Besides - Nothing else can be better than all making all beings buddhas. Why dabble with partial things like guns.
It's hard to take you seriously.

There's an epidemic running wild in the US. Children are shot and killed regularly in schools. Politicians refuse to do anything. They refuse to do what needs to be done. I am not quite sure door blockers of all things is the solution here, when it's quite clear what needs to be done. Of course, the NRA, lobbyism, and cowardly Republicans who value money over American lives ensures that it's damn near impossible to do the right thing.

So, I think that saying that door blockers is part of the solution, is an inane comment, considering just what is taking place. That is why saying bulletproof vests is part of the solution is equally the same thing. It's absurd, when countries like Australia for example, understood what had to be done, and did it.

Remove these weapons from civilian ownership. Period.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by shaunc » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:00 pm

As a father of 4 children, 3 of them boys occasionally one of them would pick up a stick and hit the other. Of course I didn't blame the stick, but I still took it away.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:12 pm

If the samsaric mind has any outstanding quality it is interdependence of many factors, a mix of good and bad ones. Therefore, reliance on only one element, whether to solve the worldly mind or the butchery by guns in the USA is not effective.

But the simplicity of the appeal is strong; unfortunately the obstacles to removing guns from all civilians is not possible now.

Doing whatever will reduce suffering is a practical bodhisattva's function. This will include small efforts, as well as large ones.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Norwegian » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:34 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:12 pm
If the samsaric mind has any outstanding quality it is interdependence of many factors, a mix of good and bad ones. Therefore, reliance on only one element, whether to solve the worldly mind or the butchery by guns in the USA is not effective.

But the simplicity of the appeal is strong; unfortunately the obstacles to removing guns from all civilians is not possible now.

Doing whatever will reduce suffering is a practical bodhisattva's function. This will include small efforts, as well as large ones.
If a large tree is sick, and there's an incoming danger of it falling over and crushing those underneath it, you don't discuss the merits of fine pruning of leaves and branches. The entire tree is rotten, down to its core and roots. Thus you have to deal with the entire tree itself.

Yes I suppose there's some small efforts included by pruning the branches of such a tree. But if it's falling, it's still falling, and if it smashes people underneath it, it doesn't matter whether it was pruned or not. People will still die. And so it's not practical at all.

And that's the reality of today's situation in the US. Nonsensical suggestions from the NRA, GOP, and other people who refuse to see reality for what it really is, adds nothing to really solve the issue at hand. They are the ones who refuse to do the right thing. They are the ones who put up roadblocks that halts any kind of positive development on this issue.

As for your door blockers, they are useless if the shooter already has their weapon of choice with them into the classroom/location. But maybe then bulletproof vests and helmets would be useful. Small efforts right?

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:05 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:49 pm
Part of the solution is making soft targets like schools, businesses etc. harder. Many kinds of door blockers are available and are being used now in some schools.

This is one kind: https://www.bilco.com/Store/ProductDeta ... _Model_DSI
RIght because that is so much easier and far less expensive than getting rid of guns from our civil society in the first place.

The second amendment is not sacred. It is an amendment, and its needs to be repealed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:10 pm

Republicans crack me up with their oblivious hypocrisy. Obama deficits bad! Trump deficits good! I could go on, but I won't.

Got a problem with gun violence in schools? Obviously the solution is adding more guns!
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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