deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

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conebeckham
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by conebeckham » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:10 pm
Republicans crack me up with their oblivious hypocrisy. Obama deficits bad! Trump deficits good! I could go on, but I won't.

Got a problem with gun violence in schools? Obviously the solution is adding more guns!
Or making schools more like prisons. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Absurd. Just as absurd as the arguments made in defense of owning AR-15's. Conservatives are literalists regarding the Constitution, or so they say, until it suits them to interpret some fairly clear language to mean "We should have the freedom to own machines designed entirely for mass killings."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
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Mantrik
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:24 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm

Besides - Nothing else can be better than all making all beings buddhas. Why dabble with partial things like guns.
Ah, the argument of the cults. Our path is higher so we ignore all practical worldly methods and focus exclusively on our own enlightenment so we can help all other sentient beings. So if you want to do the very best thing possible, please give all your money and time to support my enlightenment and let your family starve.........or get shot.

A story:
I was once in a cult 'meditation' session. Outside, through an open window, we could hear what seemed to be a girl being attacked by a man. The 'teacher' asked us to ignore it as our enlightenment was more important. I didn't....and showed him that his perception of 'changing' by 'abandoning' meditation to take action and 'returning' to meditation was dualistic crapola. I wasn't being clever, just instinctive, as years of Japanese martial arts trained me to get up, do what was necessary and sit down without thinking about it.

You seem to be stuck in the dualistic notion that dealing with gun crime is 'other' rather than simply part of the path.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:31 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:20 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:52 am
Nothing will ever be done while the dogma of ‘guns=freedom’ reigns.
This morning's NY Times summarized Wayne LaPierre's speech to the Conservative Political Action Conference
Wayne LaPierre is a nutcase. He’s an awful man with a completely distorted understanding of the meaning freedom. He’s a danger to society. I would love to see him charged with inciting violence and sedition - but unfortunately in this case the lunatics are in charge of the asylum.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:24 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:06 pm

Besides - Nothing else can be better than all making all beings buddhas. Why dabble with partial things like guns.
Ah, the argument of the cults. Our path is higher so we ignore all practical worldly methods and focus exclusively on our own enlightenment so we can help all other sentient beings. So if you want to do the very best thing possible, please give all your money and time to support my enlightenment and let your family starve.........or get shot.

A story:
I was once in a cult 'meditation' session. Outside, through an open window, we could hear what seemed to be a girl being attacked by a man. The 'teacher' asked us to ignore it as our enlightenment was more important. I didn't....and showed him that his perception of 'changing' by 'abandoning' meditation to take action and 'returning' to meditation was dualistic crapola. I wasn't being clever, just instinctive, as years of Japanese martial arts trained me to get up, do what was necessary and sit down without thinking about it.

You seem to be stuck in the dualistic notion that dealing with gun crime is 'other' rather than simply part of the path.
Forgot to use a sarcasm smiley, (if there is such). Was just pointing out the identity in logic of using one root cause, whether buddhas or no guns as the only fix. Thus the truism of the Best being the enemy of the Better being shown to be true.

For the record, although it might put a crimp in my critics words, I have not objection to gun control or gun banning or gun destruction. It is just not practical in the USA of today. So I focus on lesser mitigating actions.

Until the distant era of Ahimsa ruling the hearts & minds of all humanity, partial & poor solutions are all that we have to reduce the effects of hate, anger and the many other vices of humanity.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:10 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 pm
Until the distant era of Ahimsa ruling the hearts & minds of all humanity, partial & poor solutions are all that we have to reduce the effects of hate, anger and the many other vices of humanity.
Door blocks are a partial and poor solution, gun bans are not perfect, but work a hell of a lot better than door blocks in reducing gun deaths.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:11 am

Well, of course the only way to eliminate gun crime is to prevent the opportunity for it.
This, of course, drives the mad and bad to seek other methods. Here in the UK there is a new trend... acid attacks. Rather hopelessly there are discussions about banning the sale of corrosive chemicals. But the fact remains that access to a gun provides the best killing tool short of bombs and grenades etc. and if people in the UK had that gun access I have no doubt at all that we would end up like the USA.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:12 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:10 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:52 pm
Until the distant era of Ahimsa ruling the hearts & minds of all humanity, partial & poor solutions are all that we have to reduce the effects of hate, anger and the many other vices of humanity.
Door blocks are a partial and poor solution, gun bans are not perfect, but work a hell of a lot better than door blocks in reducing gun deaths.
Only if gun bans are put into effect - they will not in near future. A solution is what works, gun bans are only a soothing ideal. But dream on...
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:16 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:12 am
A solution is what works, gun bans are only a soothing ideal.
Unfortunately, correct.

In fact there was another proposed assault weapons ban (after the Clinton one I posted about earlier) in 2013 during the Obama administration.
The vote failed, partly because 15 Democrat Senators voted against the ban.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/15-democ ... d=50275295

And that's just for an assault weapons ban, not something like a total ban on all guns; failed with full bipartisan support of GOP and Dems.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am

A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?

However, making it harder for anyone at all to go to wal mart to pick up an AR 15 any time they like sounds like a grand idea to me, especially now that we are in the era of people collecting and hoarding such weapons with minimal training and/or oversight.

The 'responsible gun owners" are going to have to have a conversation and decide where limits lie, and stop pretending there are none, we cannot have individuals arming themselves with no limitation without facing serious consequences.
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Quay » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:10 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:00 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:44 am
Disclosure: I was encouraged to get a gun for self protection when I was living in a really high crime area in South Central LA. I have some crazy stories, but I learned that if you aren't involving yourself with gangs and drugs, you really don't have anything to fear.

As it turned out, I never had reason to use a gun to defend myself, ever. I realized the nature of crime and gun violence was that most innocent people don't need one for protection.

This is my guilty confession post. :?
Here's mine, although I feel no guilt and have nothing to confess:

I like to shoot firearms. Specifically, I like to put holes in paper at a distance, with a bang.

I own two firearms. One of them is a handgun my grandfather brought back as a war prize after the US and the Soviets pulled Europe's head out of its own ass. The other is a sniper rifle (modified Mosin Nagant) my uncle, an Army Ranger, brought back as a war prize from Vietnam. Both of these are stored at my father's house, in a safe, a few thousand miles away from where my daughter can reach them. Neither of these weapons go to the range. When I shoot targets, I borrow one of my dad's pieces (this makes him happy and gives me an opportunity to supervise his own shooting).

With that said, in a few years' time I will ensure that my daughter knows what to do when she encounters a firearm. I think this is a survival skill in the US. I don't want her to panic when there's a gun around; similarly, I want her to understand the gravity of the situation when someone is playing stupid games with a lethal toy. I want her to know how to defuse a potentially unsafe situation. She needs to know this and the only way to learn is through practical familiarity with the routines of gun safety. If she wants to learn to shoot, then we will enroll her in a safety course that we feel comfortable with. If not, that's good.

I think this is a kind of vaccine against becoming a gun nut. Or I hope it may be.
Most people have heard the advice not to advertise your upcoming vacation on social media lest potential burglars take advantage of it. In a similar manner, publicly advertising what kinds of weapons you own, their location, and your intentions regarding them is also a bad idea.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:02 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:12 am
Only if gun bans are put into effect - they will not in near future. A solution is what works, gun bans are only a soothing ideal. But dream on...
No, assault rifle, semi-automatic and automatic weapons and pistol bans are not a soothing ideal and they are not a dream. They are a reality in civilised Western countries. But if you are happy with living in a nightmare where the safety of your children is threatened just because they want an education (like the Taliban threaten educational facilities in Afghanistan, or Boko Haram in Nigeria) then knock yourself out. If that is the sort of society you want to live in.

The kids in your society are saying something very different though. But why listen to them, when you can listen to criminals (politicians on the receiving end of gun lobby bribes) and their apologists (you), right? I call you an apologist because even though you claim to not be against gun control, by saying that it is not tenable (even though it is), you are basically coming out against gun control.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:32 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
I would propose it. But then I have experience in bargaining. If you go to your politicians asking only for the banning of assault rifles, you will get a ban on bump stocks. That is the direction your president is already pushing the discussion in. Unfortunately in politics compromise is a big thing, so you have to start from the far end of the argument's spectrum in order to arrive at a logical compromise.

But, to tell you the truth, I don't find the total ban of weapons (especially in an urban environment) draconian or ridiculous. There is no reason for a civilian to own anything more than a strictly regulated hunting weapon (if they choose that "hobby") or a target shooting gun (if they choose to take part in that sport). None whatsoever.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by shaunc » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:06 am

Listening to the radio at work today and President Trump (U.S.A.) has met with Prime minister Turnbull (Australia). Unfortunately both have agreed that an Australian style gun ban won't work in the U.S and there's no proposed changes to the U.S. gun laws. It's a shame that he hasn't noticed that thoughts and prayers don't seem to be doing much good either.

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by madhusudan » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:32 am
None whatsoever.
In the 20th Century, 260,000,000 people were murdered by their own government. This is termed democide.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Mantrik » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:49 am

The UK was way ahead of the USA in actually demanding that every man should practise his shooting
- by law, every Sunday as a minimum. The law dates back to 1511 and related to longbow shooting. Since we no longer require every man to be available as an archer to defend the nation, the law was repealed - although not properly so until 1960.

As far as I can surmise, having massacred most of the wildlife and the indigenous population, and booted out the last sensible government and its tea, the requirement for arming every US citizen has somewhat diminished. This explains the need of the populace to shoot each other, there being no suitable external challenge creating the demand for weaponry.

In order to sustain the essential trade, which supports the nation's economy, this must be encouraged and one must applaud the Presidential view that supply should be accelerated amongst those, like himself, with a chronological or mental age of 8 or less. These good toddlers and good ole boys will undoubtedly sustain the demand and yet only kill the bad people. But I must disagree with the tangerine-hued gonk that arming teachers would be useful, as they may pause to consider things before shooting a child, especially teachers of maths who would also be engrossed in calculating velocity and angles. Clearly not desirable, thinking.

We must surely agree that a nation with a well-armed population which like its leader is compliant and humble in its behaviour is actually a recipe for civil peace, and not at all a matter for consternation.
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:33 pm

madhusudan wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:11 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:32 am
None whatsoever.
In the 20th Century, 260,000,000 people were murdered by their own government. This is termed democide.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
And if these people were armed they would not have been murdered? Or if 50% of that statistic were deaths of state security forces it would make it better???

260,000,000 people murdered during the 20th Century, but, oh, 130,000,000 of them were soldiers and police, so that's okay... :shrug:

What you fail to see is that the guns in Amerika are not being turned against the murderous state, but against innocent civilians (or, in most cases, the guns are being used by the owners against the owners themselves). So this "arm the people against state oppression" argument does not work, not in first world democracies, that's for sure.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
Well civilians hunting is illegal in my country, I'd love to see it go too in other areas, but that's a bit too much to ask for concerning the differences in culture, any government who thinks it's allright to kill animals for sport yet frowns upon innocent people getting shot I find a bit shady.
Ah well, one step (planet) at a time I guess.
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Malcolm
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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:59 pm

fuki wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:15 am
A total ban of guns is a ridiculous, and draconian idea, when has that actually been proposed?
seems pretty reasonable to me, apart from law enforcement and the military, civilians really do not need firearms for more than hunting and sport.
Well civilians hunting is illegal in my country, I'd love to see it go too in other areas, but that's a bit too much to ask for concerning the differences in culture, any government who thinks it's allright to kill animals for sport yet frowns upon innocent people getting shot I find a bit shady.
Ah well, one step (planet) at a time I guess.
The Netherlands is a tiny country, go hunting there you are likely to accidentally hit a tulip.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: deadliest mass shooting in the U.S.

Post by fuki » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:59 pm
The Netherlands is a tiny country, go hunting there you are likely to accidentally hit a tulip.
:lol:

The nbc fake news bit about why we are so good at speed skating was pretty amusing.
meldpunt seksueel misbruik in boeddhistische gemeenschappen nederland.
https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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